On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: > > > If the compiler doesn't reliably detect changes, then it is a HUGE problem! >
In what cases does that happen? Your document[1] doesn't indicate this is a problem. [1]: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Incremental+Builds > All the later stages can only depend on the results of the previous ones. To > not trigger a necessary rebuild is WAY worse than to rebuild a few classes > too much. > > Exactly that is the reason why most people always use "mvn CLEAN install" all > the time currently. > > LieGrue, > strub > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> >> To: Maven Developers List <dev@maven.apache.org>; Mark Struberg >> <strub...@yahoo.de> >> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: >> >> If you are attempting to remove plexus-utils initially without a >>>> >>> >>> binary compatible drop-in replacement with code from Apache then I'm -1. >>>> >>> Please re-read my previous mail. We will NOT drop plexus-utils! We will >>> just move maven core off it for most parts. >>> >>> >> >> >> Hmm, what's the difference exactly? >> >> >>> >>> we've had incremental build support in m2e forever >>>> You don't see most of the 'incremental' problems in m2 because the >>>> recompile already gets done by eclipse itself I assume. E.g. the >>>> maven-compiler-plugin until recently failed to detect cross-class >>>> relations and did only recompile the file which got changed. I changed >>>> that only recently. >>> >>> >> >> >> The compiler is not the problem, even for large code bases the compiler is >> incredibly fast. Profile your average build and it's not the compilation >> that's the bottleneck. But again I would argue you don't need to make >> drastic changes in the core to make incremental builds work. Some, but they >> are few. >> >> >>> LieGrue, >>> strub >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>>> >>> From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> >>>> >>> To: Maven Developers List <dev@maven.apache.org>; Mark Struberg >>> <strub...@yahoo.de> >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:49 PM >>>> >>> Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You need to do one thing at time and not conflate the replacement of the >>> plexus-utils code with anything else you want to implement. Mixing the two >>> will almost certainly lead to problems. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> If you are attempting to remove plexus-utils initially without a binary >>> compatible drop-in replacement with code from Apache then I'm -1. I'm not >>> going to change that position because I think you're needlessly causing >>> problems. If you want to replace the code go for it, just do it safely. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Incremental builds are a separate matter all together and can be done in a >>> branch, we've had incremental build support in m2e forever and you don't >>> need to massively change the core at all to do it. In fact it works right >>> now with the core as it is. Put a complete proposal together (I've seen the >>> initial ideas) because if you think you need to drastically change the core >>> for incremental builds I believe you are incorrect. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> At any rate, one thing at a time. If you want to replace the code in >>> plexus-utils with something else do that first as a separate, clear >>> endeavor. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Aug 30, 2012, at 8:40 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I fear my perspective is pretty different. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> To _not_ produce a 1:1 drop in replacement gives us a few benefits. >>> Actually it doesn't matter which version maven itself uses as this wont >>> affect user builds. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> BUT it would _heavily_ affect users if their old builds wont work anymore >>> because we dropped some ancient signature. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> And there is a well cast technical reason for this change: I need >>> new/improved functionality for the incremental build. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> My proposal is to move maven itself to a much more progressive/improved >>> version (thus off plexus-utils) but keep the old signatures and the >>> original plexus-utils around for plugins which still uses it. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> If a plugin likes to use the new maven-core-utils then this is perfectly >>> possible as well of course. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> LieGrue, >>>>> >>> strub >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> ________________________________ >>>>>> >>> From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@tesla.io> >>>>>> >>> To: Maven Developers List <dev@maven.apache.org>; Mark Struberg >>> <strub...@yahoo.de> >>>>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> If you can create a drop-in replacement for the plexus-utils code go for >>> it. I believe this exercise is of little value users and you run the real >>> risk of introducing problems for no technical reason, but if you want to do >>> the work that's your prerogative. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> So much time was spent to preserve the existing signatures and behaviour in >>> the container swap and this is not something to be taken lightly, and you >>> should do what has been done in the past. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I think the path to do this if you want to get rid of the plexus-utils >>> reference is to reduce the foot print to the classes being used in the core >>> and then drop in that reduced JAR. Create a replacement with the code >>> you've copied, reimplemented, improved yet binary compatible and test that >>> for a while. Binary compatible in all respects, package and signature. And >>> from there then make any subsequent changes. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I honestly am not overly concerned with plugins because they can be fixed >>> relatively quickly, but doing low value changes in the core for swapping >>> out one set of code for another is seriously playing with fire. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> If you initially are intending to change code in the core to accommodate >>> this change I see no technical reason for it, is dangerous and I'm -1. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Aug 30, 2012, at 8:03 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> While digging thru the plexus-utils usage I wonder whether we should place >>> the maven-utils in maven-core or maven-shared. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> maven-core doesn't yet have any maven-shared dependency it seems. Which >>> means if we like to use them in maven-core as well we should relocate >>> maven-shared-utils to the maven-3 core module. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> wdyt? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> LieGrue, >>>>>>> >>> strub >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> From: Kristian Rosenvold <kristian.rosenv...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> To: Maven Developers List <dev@maven.apache.org> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> Cc: >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:48 AM >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> Well obviously given the current number of failing >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> tests,maven-shared-utils is going nowhere right now ;) >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> I will do a test-migration and remove unused code in >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> org.apache.maven.shared.utils.io before we release. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> Kristian >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Jason >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>> >>> Founder & CTO, Sonatype >>>>>> >>> Founder, Apache Maven >>>>>> >>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can >>> fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- Paul Graham >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Jason >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> Jason van Zyl >>>> >>> Founder & CTO, Sonatype >>>> >>> Founder, Apache Maven >>>> >>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> >>>> >>> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will >>>> >>> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come >>>> >>> and sit softly on your shoulder ... >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- Thoreau >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>> >>> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Jason van Zyl >> Founder & CTO, Sonatype >> Founder, Apache Maven >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead. >> >> -- Benjamin Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org > Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder & CTO, Sonatype Founder, Apache Maven http://twitter.com/jvanzyl --------------------------------------------------------- We know what we are, but know not what we may be. -- Shakespeare
