Oh I see. That is certainly odd. Maybe the previous post about Tomcat IO being faster than Java IO is a clue?
On 5/24/07, John Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My thought was that when comparing Glassfish that is built on top of Grizzly, and Tomcat with it own NIO engine you only get 10% improvement. But when you compare AsyncWeb on top of MINA or Grizzly you get a 50% difference. That would tell me that MINA is way slower than the IO engine for Tomcat. But I haven't seen this. John On 5/24/07, Adam Fisk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The benchmark was swapping MINA and Grizzly, both using AsyncWeb... I think > you're maybe thinking of Grizzly as synonymous with Glassfish? They pulled > it out into a generic NIO framework along the lines of MINA. > > On 5/24/07, John Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > OK. I was looking at the Tomcat vd grizzly benchmark. But then its a > > bit strange. If your'e only 10% faster than tomcat but 50% faster than > > MINA. That 50% is with AsyncWeb on MINA. So its not a bench mark of > > MINA alone the application on MINA. > > > > I chose MINA for a simple fast scalable server that would server up > > data files via HTTP requests and MINA for me at the time (about 1 year > > ago) was the quickest, most simple to use. I remember trying tomcat > > but it was too big and wasn't that fast for simple responses, so I'm > > not sure that the 50% is MINA or AsyncWeb. > > > > I also agree java.net has some very useful projects, and for me, I > > appreciate being able to read other implementation details and see > > whether they have any use for me. Also lets remember that SUN, like > > everybody else has the right to beat their chest and say they are the > > best. Its for us to ignore them when we see that its more ego than > > anything substantial. > > > > Anyway, back to the matter of benchmarks. it might be nice to have a > > set of classes that would allow one to create a test of various > > operations using MINA, and so from version to version, patches > > included, we could keep track of whether we are improving things. > > > > John > > On 5/24/07, Adam Fisk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I hear you. Sun's generally just annoying. It would just probably be > > worth > > > taking a look under the hood to see if there's any real magic there > > > regardless of all th politics. Wish I could volunteer to do it, but > > I've > > > got a startup to run! > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > > On 5/24/07, Alex Karasulu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh yes I agree with you completely. I was really referring to how > > > > benchmarks are > > > > being used as marketing tools and published to discredit other > > projects. > > > > Also I > > > > believe that there are jewels at java.net as well. And you read me > > right: > > > > I'm no fan > > > > of SUN nor it's "open source" efforts. > > > > > > > > <OT> > > > > Back in the day when Bill Joy and Scott McNealy were at the helm I had > > a > > > > profound sense of > > > > respect for SUN. I actually wanted to become an engineer there. Now, > > > > IMO, > > > > they're a completely > > > > different beast driven by marketing rather than engineering > > principals. I > > > > feel they resort to base > > > > practices that show a different character than the noble SUN I was > > used > > > > to. > > > > It's sad to know that > > > > the SUN many of us respected and looked up to has long since died. > > > > </OT> > > > > > > > > Regarding benchmarks they are great for internal metrics and shedding > > > > light > > > > on differences in > > > > architecture that could produce more efficient software. I'm a big > > fan of > > > > competing > > > > against our own releases - meaning benchmarking a baseline and looking > > at > > > > the > > > > performance progression of the software as it evolves with time. Also > > > > testing other > > > > frameworks is good for just showing how different scenarios are > > handled > > > > better > > > > with different architectures: I agree that we can learn a lot from > > these > > > > tests. > > > > > > > > I just don't want to use metrics to put down other projects. It's all > > > > about > > > > how you use > > > > the metrics which I think was my intent on the last post. This > > perhaps is > > > > why I am a > > > > bit disgusted with these tactics which are not in line with open > > source > > > > etiquette but > > > > rather the mark of commercially driven and marketing oriented OSS > > efforts. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > On 5/24/07, Adam Fisk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I agree on the tendency to manipulate benchmarks, but that doesn't > > mean > > > > > benchmarks aren't a useful tool. How else can we evaluate > > > > performance? I > > > > > guess I'm most curious about what the two projects might be able to > > > > learn > > > > > from each other. I would suspect MINA's APIs are significantly > > easier > > > > to > > > > > use than Grizzly's, for example, and it wouldn't surprise me at all > > if > > > > > Sun's > > > > > benchmarks were somewhat accurate. I hate Sun's java.netprojects > > as > > > > much > > > > > as the next guy, but that doesn't mean there's not an occasional > > jewel > > > > in > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > It would at least be worth running independent tests. If the > > > > differences > > > > > are even close to the claims, it would make a ton of sense to just > > copy > > > > > their ideas. No need for too much pride on either side! Just seems > > > > like > > > > > they've put a ton of work into rigorously analyzing the performance > > > > > tradeoffs of different design decisions, and it might make sense to > > take > > > > > advantage of that. If their benchmarks are off and MINA performs > > > > better, > > > > > then they should go ahead and copy MINA. > > > > > > > > > > That's all assuming the performance tweaks don't make the existing > > APIs > > > > > unworkable. > > > > > > > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/24/07, Alex Karasulu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/24/07, Mladen Turk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adam Fisk wrote: > > > > > > > > The slides were just posted from this Java One session > > claiming > > > > > > Grizzly > > > > > > > > blows MINA away performance-wise, and I'm just curious as to > > > > > people's > > > > > > > views > > > > > > > > on it. They present some interesting ideas about optimizing > > > > > selector > > > > > > > > threading and ByteBuffer use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://developers.sun.com/learning/javaoneonline/j1sessn.jsp?sessn=TS-2992&yr=2007&track=5 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love the slide 20! > > > > > > > JFA finally admitted that Tomcat's APR-NIO is faster then JDK > > one ;) > > > > > > > However last time I did benchmarks it was much faster then 10%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe someone could comment on the performance improvements in > > > > MINA > > > > > > > > 2.0? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He probably compared MINA's Serial IO, and that is not usable > > > > > > > for production (jet). I wonder how it would look with real > > > > > > > async http server. > > > > > > > Nevertheless, benchmarks are like assholes. Everyone has one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly! > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally SUN has been trying to attack several projects via > > the > > > > > > performance angle for > > > > > > some time now. Just recently I received a cease and desist letter > > > > from > > > > > > them > > > > > > when I > > > > > > compiled some performance metrics. The point behind it is was > > that we > > > > > > were > > > > > > not correctly > > > > > > configuring their products. I guess they just want to make sure > > > > things > > > > > > are > > > > > > setup to their > > > > > > advantage. That's what all these metrics revolve around and if > > you > > > > ask > > > > > me > > > > > > they're not worth > > > > > > a damn. There is a million ways to make one product perform > > better > > > > than > > > > > > another depending > > > > > > on configuration, environment and the application. However is raw > > > > > > performance metrics as > > > > > > important as a good flexible design? > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
