Hi all, I started a thread some time ago asking for imput and wishes from all of us so that we cans set some goals and create a roadmap Unfortunately the mail got little traction....maybe now we can revive it and complete a roadmap
Best regards Alin On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, 12:14 raiden00pl, <raiden0...@gmail.com> wrote: > I completely agree that project management in NuttX is either lacking or > completely non-existent. I think the lack of a generally accepted road map > for > the project is the biggest problem here. TBH we don't even know where > the project is headed. Probably if this large number of commits were > supported > by some kind of roadmap so that it would be known what the goal of these > changes is - it would make more sense. > > In the long run, without coordinated collaboration between teams working > separately on NuttX and without a commonly accepted roadmap, I think the > project > may fail spectacularly. > > This is where the advantage of BDFL projects comes in. One person has > authority over the project and manages it according to his/her vision. > Managing a project in a distributed manner is a difficult task, > and so far we are not succeeding at it. I think NuttX hasn't correctly > transitioned from being managed by Greg (BDFL model) to being managed by > distributed management yet. And this is the biggest problem here. > > And how to fix it? I have no idea, but I don't think limiting the number of > changes > to the project is a solution. Maybe a good first step is to discuss and > establish > a project roadmap with its contributors and companies that are interested > in it. > But this requires someone to coordinate the process and preferably has > experience > in managing distributed open source projects. I don't know if we have such > a person in our group. > > śr., 29 sty 2025 o 11:33 Sebastien Lorquet <sebast...@lorquet.fr> > napisał(a): > > > hi > > > > > > On 29/01/2025 10:21, raiden00pl wrote: > > > Sebastian, so you're saying that you and your company have the > resources > > to > > > develop > > > and maintain your own RTOS, but you lack the resources to help maintain > > > NuttX (e.g., code review, release testing.)? > > > This either doesn't make sense or you just don't want to participate in > > > this project. > > > > I dont have resources for a project as large as nuttx, obviously. And I > > dont need to. > > > > it will take some time and it will be much simpler. In fact I have a > > project that is almost working for this including a vfs. > > > > Or I'll find a project that cares about long term support. > > > > > > But for sure, I'll get rid of nuttx, thats enough: every time I update, > > everything is broken, the build system is not stable, and what used to > > work does not work anymore, including things as simple as the > > configure.sh script. it takes ages just to get our code to compile again > > before I can consider any improvement. > > > > I dont have energy to spend for such dumb fixes. I'm loosing my time in > > a completely useless way. > > > > I prefer sending more time being productive with the goal of controlling > > our software stack. > > > > > > > Cherry-picking a single commit to justify your frustration isn’t fair. > > > Yes, some commits may be poorly described, but we actively try to > > improve in > > > that regard. With a limited number of contributors, it’s understandable > > > that our > > > reviews aren’t perfect. However, it's worth noting that neither you nor > > > your company contributed to addressing this issue. > > > > come on, do you really think it's just one commit? if you cant guess, no > > it isnt. this was just an example to show that your own policies are not > > even applied correctly. > > > > before using ai to review pull requests, just make sure that commit > > messages are useful! But you cant, there's too many stuff to check. > > that's a huge red flag for me. > > > > it's an accumulation of problems, for years, with no changes, and it's > > getting worse. The more you add auto tool, the more they are > > circumvented, because developers know that no one will check. > > > > > > No, I dont want to fix anything in nuttx anymore. it's no use. I'm a > > drop in an ocean, just complaining to a community that does not care and > > just want to code faster than light. > > > > also, you have several developers pushing hundreds of commit every week. > > if they wanted to fix anything, they would do it. > > > > > > > > > > That’s completely fine, everyone has different priorities. What is NOT > > OK is > > > criticizing those who dedicate their time to this project, often > > > voluntarily. > > > This is one of the biggest problems with open source projects: > > > people who give little, demand a lot and complain about others. > > > > there are different way to dedicate available time. > > > > My conclusion is that volunteers here are not spending their time wisely. > > > > I have no wish to spend energy for project management. But I can see > > that something is wrong here, definitely. > > > > > BTW, if your product works on earlier NuttX releases, wouldn’t it be > > easier > > > to stick with a stable release and selectively cherry-pick only the > > changes > > > that matter to you? > > > > Tried to do that for tcp keep alive, which is broken in the version I > > was using. but the full network stack has completely changed in a few > > months. I cant cherry pick and apply anything. > > > > thats beyond frustration. > > > > I need a full nuttx upgrade after one year and first thing I need to > > understand is why configure.sh is complaining about sed. wtf??? > > > > so the only way to use nuttx long term is by following the master branch > > every day? > > > > that is not going to happen. > > > > > > > > It's a pity that you're leaving because I remember that you've been in > > this > > > community for a very long time. Your critical perspective (the correct > > way > > > of > > > doing engineering IMO) was really useful and is something that is > > > unfortunately > > > disappearing in today's world. > > > > this is sad but my conclusion is I cant change anything in this project, > > so it's no use banging my head on the wall with no purpose. > > > > it would be great if my departure would lead to your reconsidering of > > this project management and leadership. > > > > if you looked at the reality, and detected that the amount of commits > > coming daily is not a sustainable way to manage project. > > > > but lets be honest. nothing will happen, right? I've been here for long > > enough to be sure of that. > > > > so I'm out. > > > > this is good for you: I'll stop complaining. > > > > > > > > > > Take care and good luck. > > > > > > wt., 28 sty 2025 o 16:19 Tomek CEDRO <to...@cedro.info> napisał(a): > > > > > >> On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 11:23 AM Sebastien Lorquet < > > sebast...@lorquet.fr> > > >> wrote: > > >>> my trust in nuttx is now hard to maintain. > > >>> Every day a DELUGE of commits (from xiaomi, this is a fact) is added > to > > >>> the repository. > > >>> I am struggling to understand what happens in this project. > > >>> so many fixes are pushed, how is that even possible? this is a > > quicksand > > >>> project! > > >> Sebastien, I feel your pain. Not necessarily with NuttX as this is my > > >> "safe island". But with all Open-Source in general. This is the result > > >> of enforced-changes ideology introduced ~30 years ago by Microsoft > > >> that surrounds us even in daily non-computer life. I don't even > > >> mention commercial products that get constantly more expensive and > > >> clearly have no basic QA process and break ~6 month after purchase. I > > >> lost trust in big brands long ago. > > >> > > >>> Also, how are such commits (not from xiaomi!) allowed? No description > > >>> except "uf2" ? Where is the adult in charge? > > >> We do what we can, updated documentation and requirements, added > > >> helper bots with feedback, etc, and require sensible descriptions. I > > >> even update some PR descriptions by hand. Still it is git log that > > >> contains the history true. > > >> > > >> There is only few people that review the code. If you could help us > > >> that would help a lot! You may not use GH for projects just to help us > > >> in review.. > > >> > > >> > > >>> I am announcing that after that many years my company has started to > > >>> develop a minimal rtos to replace our usage of nuttx, because it is > > just > > >>> not stable enough to be usable for stable long term projects. > > >>> > > >>> There are too many changes, we are loosing money every time we need > an > > >>> update. there is no way to maintain the use of a nuttx custom board > and > > >>> project over several years. > > >>> > > >>> Having control of our code will be a better investment. That will > > >>> obviously be closed source. Which is, after all, a better way of > > control > > >>> on our products. > > >> I am facing the same situation for some long years and it gets worse > > >> and worse :-( Either use something that is advertised to work quickly > > >> but then you are tied to constant moving target and maintenance > > >> nightmare and if you want to change one simple thing it takes more > > >> time than would take me to write everything myself. On the other hand > > >> it is impossible to write everything on your own. I wrote from scratch > > >> the LibSWD ~15 years ago to be able to debug.. and it turns out today > > >> that I can do much more today with a commercial probe :-( All previous > > >> project made with fancy pancy RTOS and frameworks are now in trash. > > >> Solutions like Linux and FreeRTOS also change API every release that > > >> causes maintenance nightmare. I use FreeBSD as OS but it also has its > > >> own problems, more changes are introduced with every release, drivers > > >> adopted to be compatible by so called "Linux standard" are > > >> self-incompatible nightmare. > > >> > > >> I am working with niche solutions but the changes come constantly from > > >> other places and that impacts even those niche solutions. You will > > >> have the same problem with your own RTOS as I face them in my own > > >> projects :-( > > >> > > >> This comes mainly from enforced changes ideologies that are advertised > > >> as "innovation" by people with zero old-school coherent simple and > > >> effective engineering knowledge.. and maybe from exponential growth > > >> that is objectively hard to cope without full time team and that > > >> requires funding we have and no one really cases about funding > > >> Open-Source just taking the results for free. > > >> > > >> > > >>> No amount of my involvement in the github triage is going to help, > the > > >>> case is desperate. I just have no time, no energy, no motivation, no > > >>> spoons left to deal with this. it's a deluge of commits, let it be, > but > > >>> without me. > > >> Yes, but what was the last time you helped us in review? This is our > > >> best-effort and all brainz matter! Help us to make things good. I > > >> always valued your constructive criticism on the mailing list.. it > > >> would be more than welcome and appreciated on GH too. But you are not > > >> on GH so how can you help? I also dont like Microsoft took over > > >> GitHub, I also dont like their fake support for Open-Source while its > > >> clearly an exploitation, I also dont like we need to ask for over 5 > > >> years for FreeBSD CI runners and it is rejected every time. I also use > > >> other platforms to host projects, but this is a common place, a tool. > > >> > > >> > > >>> the warning from the apache foundation that you use too many ci > credits > > >>> should have been a warning to slow down and reflect on the project > > >>> direction. nothing has happened except making it even faster. > > >> Not really. I would expect support from Apache in tuning stuff, maybe > > >> adapting resources to scale of the project (tiny projects have the > > >> same amount of resources as big projects). We updated and optimized > > >> the CI process as a result. We are working on more independent > > >> solutions for both code hosting, build automation, and runtime > > >> testing. But this is not a weekend work for few people in a free time. > > >> > > >> I agree there is a problem. But we do what we can to fix it. All > > >> brainz matter. Help us make things good. > > >> > > >> > > >>> I will also discourage people to use this project, I cannot in good > > >>> conscience recommend it to anyone, it would be a trap. > > >> Just as any other Open-Source project nowadays unfortunately. I dont > > >> even mention closed source SDKs that change on monthly or weekly basis > > >> and you have nothing to say just to chase the rabbit. I feel your pain > > >> because I face the same problems for a long time. There is however a > > >> difference in enforcing changes just to make things "modern" or adding > > >> modern stuff in best-effort incremental way respecting the old-school > > >> engineering rules that I think we follow here in NuttX. Problems > > >> happen everywhere. The problem is what you do with the problem. > > >> Creating your own RTOS may be a solution but you will eventually face > > >> the same problems. In the long term it may cost you even more than > > >> just helping us from time to time to make things right. > > >> > > >> > > >>> goodbye. > > >>> Sebastien > > >> This is your decision Sebastien, and we respect it. Hopefully you will > > >> reconsider and help up make things good in the process, hands-on, with > > >> the tools that we have available. You are always welcome back!! > > >> > > >> Thank you and take care! > > >> Tomek > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > >> > > >
