I create a new thread, to continue the discussion, because we probably
have a lot to say :-)
[Of course, I can we wrong, of course everything can be completed, so I
strongly invite you to quote correctly in your answers. And please, be
constructive. Thank you very much ]
First, thank you very much to start the discussion. To complete it, I'm
writing a document actually 7-8 pages (probably 9-10 in fact) about
Strategy and Plans for Mac OS X port. It needs some work, and some
informations are still missing. Please be patient.
>Before I start raising any expectations I would like to say a few
words about the quite ambitious plan of doing a native
>Mac port that neither uses X11 nor Java.
I am very clear :
No, there's no ambiguity : my original idea about 2.0 build was simply
“show a proof of concept”, like “2.0 can work on Mac OS X ”.
One year ago, *none* was believing it could be possible. We only were
the two Eric's enough crazy to think it was possible. Of course, without
all the help we received, nothing would be possible.
Here start the sense of the word "Community".
What about Mac OS X port of OpenOffice.org ?
Some part of Mac OS X specific code were even deleted inside 1.9.xxx
tree ! (cvs log is great ), none was officially working on it,
excepted Kevin Hendricks and maybe Thorsten Behrens.
Considering these facts, I can say that an existing Mac OS X port of
OpenOffice.org with 2.0 was not scheduled.
I invite anyone to prove me the opposite.
Note : in Koper, some leads was even not aware there was an existing Mac
OS X port of OpenOffice.org... :-/
Now, we have more than expected : 2.0 is very close to stable status,
even if some parts are missing, and it's code can be used for the next
generation. With Tino, you made a great work recently, thank's again !
BTW, to illustrate the choice, see for example :
<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Porting/Conceptual/PortingUnix/index.html>
More exactly, I'm thinking to the folllowing topic :
->Using Mac OS X Native Application Environments->Choosing a native
application environment
Java, Cocoa and Carbon are compared (benefits/drawbacks are explained).
Remember : for Mac OS X, user defines what is needed (want's the "Blue
Button" like wrote Ed Peterlin) :
Aqua look'n feel
Easy drag'n drop
Speed
Complete integration with Mac OS X
Complete integration with other Mac OS X applications
*My conclusion* : I propose to continue the initial plans *for
development version* : stop with X11, and continue with Cocoa, the most
natural choice. Whatever time we need. Just do right things, and only
one time. No problem if it goes slowly. OpenOffice.org is a free
software, and we have no commercial objectives.
BTW : I can be wrong, but reading last NeoOffice code from cvs, I saw
Patrick Luby progressively is reimplementing everything using Cocoa.
Maybe there's a good reason ?
>As a professional VCL developer and private Mac fan I watched the
porting activities of OOo regarding Mac from its
>beginning.
Thank you very much for your help, really. You are very precious for the
project, because 2 or 3 people only , like you, are able to explain
today how this monster of vcl is working. (so 5 if I add NeoOffice people).
We will have a lot of questions for you !!
Since I read OOo code, I found *no* interesting documentation about vcl,
except the one writen by Dan William, Patrick Luby and Ed Peterlin,
maybe you too, we can found at gsl.openoffice.org.
Why no documentation ?
IMHO, this *is* OOo problem : in Koper, I have heard this at least 4
times : "...yes, the lack of documentation... yes we think to write
documentation to attract... "
Just an example with Spotlight plugin written by Ed Peterlin :
everything is understandable, and well documented in the code. Why isn't
it the case with OOo ? How attract news devs this way ?
Suggestion : Free warning-code is a good objective. Add "remove dead
code" and "change silencious code in documented code" will sure help too.
> From that perspective it is very clear that a VCL port to Cocoa or
Carbon is a huge task that cannot be done
>in your spare time but requires many months (at least 6 to 9) of full
time(!) engagement, assuming you have a good
>knowledge of VCL in general and the platform dependent part in detail.
I perfectly know this won't be easy, will need a lot of energy, and we
will probably need a lot of time.
But if we do not start this, this willl never be made by anyone else. Is
it better ?
Yes, we have lost a lot of time, because we are not professional, just
volunteers. But more the port was working fine, and more interest for
Mac OS X port of OpenOffice.org was growing. More time goes, more we are
organized. It's not perfect, but we progress. This point will be
developed in my plan for Mac OS X port.
The most important is to attract developers. And some money around, to
buy machines for good developers.
> Even then you will most likely have nothing
>that is production ready but something that still requires a lot of
bug fixing in areas like font support, multi threading,
>asian key input, window management.
Of course, we have too fix this too.
>To give you a feeling of what to expect have a look at what Dan
Williams has to say in this thread:
>http://gsl.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=1581
Thank you very much for this very important example. This is a preview
of the difficulty, sure, and we absolutly have to read carefully
everything about first tries, yes. But I'm convainced that if we do not
start, none will do this.
As a starting point, I propose to use an aqua (without X11) build.
Actually, we're building with Florian, and are in vcl (yes, again vcl).
This will be our first objective.
>Once this is finished, the application will of course not look like a
native application but like OOo on UNIX or Windows.
>NWF will bring you blue buttons etc. but that's it.
Of course. I just hope we will be able to write the big secret a day in
a wiki : how from hell works vcl.
>On the other hand it opens up new ways of system integration that are
not possible with the X11 approach like native
>File and Print dialogs, Drag&Drop, may be Scripting, etc. But all this
can start only *after* the VCL port is fully done...
Yes, and around 70% of vcl has to be rewritten. IMHO, the most
important, is the know what is to do, and if I don't know everything,
someone else on the community can help.
>Please consider this in any further announcements.
Yes, of course. Thank's a lot for our intervention.
Eric Bachard
--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Francophone OpenOffice.org Commmunity developer (Linux PPC / Mac OS X /
X11)
See : <http://fr.openoffice.org>
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