Hi Jacqueline,
sorry for my late response.
Jacqueline Rahemipour wrote:
Hi Oliver,
sorry for the late response...
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - Sun Microsystems schrieb:
Jacqueline Rahemipour wrote:
(...)
But this question reminds me of one of my general concerns with
implementing the new attribute outline level without further steps:
Not many users will really know the difference between a heading (a
certain paragraph style) and a paragraph (style) with outline level >
0. That difference is irrelevant as long as the user can achieve with
both what he wanted to do. But atm there is a big difference - as you
pointed out in your reply to my first mail about this spec.
I think there is a misunderstanding - there isn't a big difference.
Probably, I've been somehow not clear enough.
A paragraph is a heading, if it belongs to an outline level. After the
specification is implemented this can be achieve in three ways - see
glossary and chapter 1.5 of the current specification.
If you use a paragraph style, which is assigned to a list level of the
outline style, to make a paragraph a heading, the paragraph additional
is also numbered according the outline style.
I think, I understood you correctly. What I meant with big difference
is, that users comprehend the meaning of "heading" in the way "Something
that has an outline number".
In my point of view the possible impact on outline numbering, TOC
(e.g. hyperlinks) and pdf-export are the most important ones for
users which are working on large documents. But these areas are not
touched by this implementation. As long as there is no improvement on
this I would prefer not to change too much on UI not to raise false
hope.
The new attribute doesn't have any influence on the outline numbering.
That's exactly the point: Many users would be really happy, that the
outline level attribute would have an influence on the outline numbering.
Ok, that's not the case. It has exactly the other effect - a heading
without a numbering.
That's one of the main purpose of these new attribute - to get a
heading without using the outline style.
The only case I have in mind for this, would be adding other paragraphs
to the TOC. But this already can be handled manually by creating the TOC
from additional styles secondary to the outline.
This is only a workaround in my eyes and it sticks to paragraph styles.
Using the new outline level attribute makes this step an automatic one.
The user will also get the freedom to include automatically a single
paragraph regardless of its used paragraph style into the TOC.
I'm looking for a solution for this case: I need two different paragraph
styles for a heading level 1 (e.g. one with page break before and the
other one without), both should be included in the outline numbering
(same level) and in the TOC. ATM you cannot handle this with paragraph
styles, because only one of the two styles can be added to the outline
numbering.
This use case isn't covered, if you still want to use the outline style.
But, this the new outline level attribute you can model this use case by
using a normal list style for the numbering of your headings:
- Make a new list style, named "MyOutlineNumbering", for the numbering
of your headings.
- Make a new paragraph style "MyHeading1", set its outline level to X
and apply list style "MyOutlineNumbering"
- Make a new paragraph style "MyHeading1WithPageBreak", link it to
"MyHeading1" - thus, it inherits the outline level and the list style -
and set a page break.
Now, you can apply the two paragraph styles accordingly. The paragraphs
will automatically on list level 1. Thus, you have to adjust the list
level of these paragraph, if you want them to be equal to the outline level.
Sorry, if my explanations are not clear enough, my english is not the
best...
No problem. Same hold to my english.
BTW, come to my office, when you visit next time the Sun OpenOffice.org
development department here in Hamburg. Then we can speak face-to-face
in german.
The TOC is influenced by the new attribute, because the TOC will by
default contain all headings.
What is the impact on the PDF-export, which you are thinking about?
Most of the users don't make a difference between a paragraph with
outline level > 0 and what they call "heading". Both should have the
same effects on the TOC and on other functions, where headings currently
are used, e.g.:
- hyperlinks in TOCs
- outline numbering
- exported bookmarks in pdfs
As you mentioned in your mail from 6.12.06 there are no planned changes
in this area.
I will try to assure in the implementation of the specification, that
all heading entries in the TOC will have a hyperlink and will be
exported as bookmarks to PDF.
Nevertheless, its good to have the new outline attribute - although it
has less effects I wished to see in future. But may be we get these
improvements for 3.x? :-)
Yes, exactly.
When we have the new feature implemented, then we should evaluate the
new version for further improvements.
Regards, Oliver.
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