Howard, "Very difficult" sounds very bad for the next major tapestry release... Our upgrade of Tapestry 3 to Tapestry 4 took several months of working on two branches at the same time. We are not ready to go through that again. No matter how much unit testing we put, there was an insane amount of real world testing to get all the frameworks work together (hibernate, spring, tapestry) and with all the customisations we have with Tapestry 4, this would be massive work on our side. And since, our app has just kept growing, more and more pages and components + more load on the server. At least for templates, for going to T3 to T4, there was only few things to replace.
And I agree with Francis about tooling... This is not something to underestimate... At least with templates now they can be edited in any existing html editor, so that cuts quite a bit on tooling requirements. But if you bring a new template model, you won't be able to match any competitor with their tooling (Seam, JSP, JSF, etc.). I do really like the new ideas you have for T5, but I'd say I'd feel more confident if there was a milestone in the middle that would provide backward compatibility. I'm sure many folks here would be more than happy if there could be a current tapestry version with your new IoC container instead of hivemind. The "all java" concept is fantastic. Also if you want new page and component models, what would prevent to add that support to the current framework as a additionnal option? And community wise, there starts to be many librairies available for T4 such as tapernate, and aegis support and AJAX stuff... All these tapestry extensions can make a big difference when someone has to choose a web framework. On 7/28/06, James Carman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Howard, I know you're very innovative and all, but doesn't this really sound somewhat crazy to you? If you really want Tapestry to gain acceptance, then backward compatibility is a big issue. I jumped into the Tapestry world with the 4.0 release and I'm really enjoying it, but if switching to 5.xis going to be "VERY difficult", then I don't know if I'll ever upgrade. Tapestry is definitely (IMHO) very superior to the "standard" JSF, but if it keeps becoming a "moving target", then it will never gain market acceptance. The big wigs will win out because they support a "standard." If Tapestry has the reputation of becoming the "consultant's framework" (as has been said in the past) because it requires so much work to upgrade, then it's going to suffer. It's not that I disagree with the direction you're heading. It's that I don't know whether or not changing paradigms so drastically is a good idea for the health of the "product" or "brand." I agree so far with what you're doing. I don't like the fact that you're switching from HiveMind to TapIoCa (that's my little nickname for the Tapestry IoC container), but if you don't want to be tied to HiveMind or don't want to be constrained by the release schedule, then I understand (although you're a big part of the HiveMind community and we can easily accommodate any changes you could need IMHO). Anyway, this is your baby, but if you want to gain some market share, then you should really listen to your users. Tapestry is starting to get a bad reputation for not supporting backward compatibility. Again, I think the direction you're heading is a good one, if you don't have to consider your current users, but we don't have that luxury. -----Original Message----- From: Howard Lewis Ship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:09 PM To: Tapestry development Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Discussions Right now its impossible because there's nothing to convert to :-) It will be *VERY* difficult. This isn't a slap of new paint. Basic paradigms are shifting around in a major way. It would be comparable, or perhaps even larger than, converting between JSF and Tapestry 4. Possibly on the order of converting from Struts to Tapestry 4. On 7/27/06, Norbert Sándor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I know that it's far away, but how easy/difficult will it be to convert > an application from 4 to 5? > > Regards, > Norbi > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Howard M. Lewis Ship TWD Consulting, Inc. Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry Creator, Apache HiveMind Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support and project work. http://howardlewisship.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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