On 07/22/2011 05:02 PM, Ric Wheeler wrote:
I don't have it backwards - my day job is to work on exactly getting
this kind of cutting edge feature out to end users.
Which feature of this magnitute have you put out to your users?
Serously if you have some motivation tips to get things moving I and
others would gladly like to hear them..
When you propose and implement a massive change, you need to make sure
that the system as a whole still works.
Certanly.
Of course, the developers of code components *should* work with the
systemd team, but if they don't (don't like it, have higher
priorities, whatever), then the proponents of change need to do the
heavy lifting. Heavy lifting can involve education, convincing others
in a *nice* way or actually having to do the code.
Regarding your education response we have man pages upstream
documentation Lennart's blog posts and various interviews he has done
along with very active upstream mailings and irc channel and if man
pages or other documentation are *vague* about any issue only thing
people need to do is ask.
You don't receive answers if you don't ask and we can't force knowledge
upon people or have them to educate themselves.
Regarding your convincing people this is the third release cycle that we
have to act nice repeat answers to both end users sysadmins and
developers alike and at the same time be our work ridiculed belittled
and we subdued to personal attacks.
You may think third time is the charm and I honestly don't how Lennart
does cope with this but I decided to draw the nice line here the third
release cycle we are put through this.
As much as I would like us to have the authority to "do the code" that
unfortunately wont cut it since we lack the expertise, the experience
and insight that maintainers have through maintaining their component so
having us walsing in and do the conversion might actually be doing more
harm then good however working together will deliver the best result.
We simply cannot ship something that would lose data or cause critical
components to fail for our users.
I completly agree and from my pov it's like maintainers do not
understand how important that is for us to manage to convert all the 500
- 600 daemons in one release cycle.
Beside the obvious unfortinate experience our user may go through like
the one Reindl Harald and perhaps others have experienced then this may
also break and hinder work for other developers that build their
application stack on top of those daemons.
One such example is the freeipa stack where the freeipa team needs to
rewrite/replace and or add seperated systemd spesific code and if I'm
not mistaken they will only support sysv on sysv platforms and systemd
on systemd platforms instead of trying to support mixed match of both
init system ( Freeipa guys feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ).
Freeipa is built on top of 389 Directory Server, MIT Kerberos, NTP,
DNS,and Dogtag ( which I dont recall having any daemons ) of that only
the NTP has been converted work is being done on converting 389 and I
think the native systemd units for freeipa server daemons are ready but
they are not being shipped yet however that leaves out bind and mit
kerberos with no movement what so ever on those two components atleast
there has been no respons on the relevant bug report for those two
components as is with so many others and I have not heard a word from
either of those maintainers on irc.
Now their new code depends on all of those components to be converted
and it does not take more then one of those components to not convert
and their whole work is being thrown out the window and they are forced
to rewrite their code to support a mixed batch of sysv legacy scripts
and native systemd units and they have the time from from Beta to GA to
test that code on that mixed batch of init files which at the same time
those unit files might be subdued to various testing and rewriting as an
indvidual standalone services.
See my point on how vital it can be to convert to those unit files as
soon as possible and that's just one application stack built on top of
five components.
The main problem here are the maintainers that do not respond to the bug
report or when I ping them on irc because then I dont get the status
from them which in turn FESCO wont either since I deliver them progress
report on each meeting along with keeping [1] updated.
I'm not asking for much of maintainers *valuable* time (apparently
others people time does not matter here. We are all busy with work life
and what not, expecial those of us that are not working full time on
fedora and are doing this work on our freetime and apparently it's not
considered rude on maintainers behalf to not respond to bug reports to
the people reporting them ) only that they respond if they are looking
at this or not or will be after a week for that matter. ( which is like
minute of two of their precious time ).
When I ping people on irc, private emails bugs and what not it's not
because I seek some enjoyment in nagging/bothering I do it because it's
necessary and the best way to get rid of me if I'm such a bother that's
to convert the legacy sysv init script because then you go of my radar
and I leave you be...
JBG
1. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/Features/SysVtoSystemd
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