On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 06:52:24AM +0000, Thomas Bruderer wrote:
> > Why not implement proper opennet?  Your stated objection was  
> > previously based on something Oskar apparently said, or didn't say,  
> > but he now seems to think we should do it (in fact, I think this was  
> > always his opinion).
> 
> I always was in favour of an opennet, and I dont like the idea of a
> semi-opennet. I think this idea only came up because some are against an 
> opennet
> in general. In fact its just a hack: and most here on the list uttered no
> satisfaction about all those hacks which made it easier to connect to each 
> other...

It's a way for people to get more connections, at some cost in security,
but without the network being harvestable, and without eliminating the
incentives for adding more darknet peers.

However I am of the view that making it easy for people to manually
connect in true darknet fashion, possibly including internal
introductions (which would be verified out of band but completed in
band; they solve the problem "i don't know which of my friends are
running it"), are important, because they build a true darknet, and we
NEED a true darknet, even if we have an opennet as well, because as has
been made increasingly clear on the chat list, we have a limited amount
of time left during which freenet will be tolerated anywhere!
> 
> sidekick to nextgens: is this message from Ian clearly enough stated?
>  
> > I agree that we need to simulate it to ensure that destination  
> > sampling (aka LRU) can co-exist with location swapping, but that  
> > should be a relatively straight-forward simulation, Oskar may even do  
> > it for us
> 
> One intersting note:
> 
> Toad states: if there is an opennet, nobody would use the darknet...
> 
> Well if there is no need for a darknet, why we talk about it? Either there is 
> a
> need, and it was good you built a darknet. Or nobody wants a darknet and there
> never will be success with darknet.

We need a darknet because an opennet can be harvested and blocked, or
harvested and attacked with polymorphic ubernodes. I believe that a
darknet can grow organically, and reach a decent size, and probably
exponentially, once it has a reasonable level of content etc. It is
probably easier to solve some of the big problems on a darknet, and it
is definitely necessary to have a large true darknet before other
countries follow China and France in blocking or banning freenet!
> 
> If really nobody wants to use darknet, whats the point in keeping it with all
> forces?

See above.
> 
> In fact I think toad is right, but my conclusion is completly different. Three
> months of 0.7 leads me to the conclusion that darknet is not a killer feature.

It's not a killer feature in terms of attracting users. However it is
required for the future survivability of Freenet, and I believe it is
feasible.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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