On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Caleb and all, > > On Nov 5, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Caleb James DeLisle <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> My opinion of github is not very bright, there's vender lockin because you >> can't easily migrate >> issues and other value addeds and they don't open source their platform so >> while git allows you >> to push somewhere else, you can't have the nice web interface with the >> features without going through >> them. >> >> That said, it is hard to argue with 3 clicks and a `git push`. >> >> While it would be easy to dismiss me as "lazy", I see this dismissal as a >> huge problem for the free >> software movement in general. Why should an ordinary person ask for >> permission to use xwiki-contrib >> then make sure their pom.xml parent ID is in order when they could just do 3 >> clicks and a git push? > > Because you get a lot more by being an xwiki-contrib project: > * CI > * Mailing list email notification > * Maven repository where to release versions > * JIRA, Wiki page (which you also get with github but that's about it) > * Sonar dashboard (coming up ;)) > * Ability to collaborate with others through a mailing list and more > generally collaborate as equals with others rather than in a "creator/second > level citizen" mode > * Quality stats on xwiki.org on the hall of fame page (needs to be improved) > * More visibility since we reference xwiki contribs projects on xwiki.org > even more than pure extensions. Note that we need to improve this part which > is not fully true ATM but which we could easily make true > * More generally ability to benefit from best of breed tools that xwiki.org > offers and continue to update/improve in general Jerome, isn't this compelling to you? >> Granted XWiki is far better off than some projects, when I see copyright >> release forms and patent >> non-infringement statements which have to be signed, I find it mindboggling >> that anyone would contribute >> to these projects at all given all of the roadblocks which have been erected. > > Actually we might have to do something about CLA in the future... > >> A good example of a social good also being more useful is Linux. I love >> Linux, it is free software and >> it is fast, even the giants such as Microsoft and Apple can't afford to >> outspend the army of companies >> who pour money into profiling, tweaking, optimizing, and refactoring Linux >> and the result is a network >> stack which blows the doors off of everyone else in the market. And it got >> that way being free. >> >> Now the question of how we should make xwiki-contrib more attractive than >> $THE_OTHER_GUY is worth asking. >> It is better for the contributor, they get continuous integration and issue >> tracking, but none of it is >> automated. Since we're all pretty busy and automating this process is >> probably not on anybody's roadmap, >> I think we're going to have to accept that it's easier to start off a small >> project in one's own namespace >> and then move when it grows and the contributor wants to take advantage of >> the services in xwiki-contrib. > > I don't really agree here. For a user asking to be on xwiki-contrib it's > pretty easy and all the work is done for them by xwiki committers. It would > need to be automated for xwiki committers' sake but not for the users asking > ;) > >> If we don't at least understand this fundamental issue then the githubs and >> facebooks of the world with >> their 1 click walled gardens will win. > > I think the list I've put above is pretty interesting for any project and it > can only grow as we improve our forge in the future. The biggest improvement > would probably be to offer a full wiki configured as a dev project flavor for > contrib projects which would contain (for ex): > - A dashboard with would have gadgets listing: latest jira issues, > contributors of the project, sonar quality gadgets, latest blog posts of the > project, etc > - A Release application (similar to the one we have on dev.xwiki.org) > - A FAQ application > - Git stats using our Github Application > - Mailing list/forum application (the one Jeremie is working on :)) > - etc Jerome, would that be compelling enough? If not, what would make you want to be an xwiki-contrib project? :) One-click release maybe? ;) (note that for the maven part this is probably possible through Jenkins) Thanks -Vincent > Thanks > -Vincent > >> Thanks, >> Caleb >> >> >> On 11/05/2012 04:02 AM, Jerome Velociter wrote: >>> On 10/23/2012 09:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote: >>>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> This should have been for devs Envoyé de mon iPhone Début du message >>>>> transféré : >>>>>> Expéditeur: Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> Date: 23 octobre 2012 >>>>>> 09:19:55 UTC+02:00 Destinataire: XWiki Users <[email protected]> Objet: >>>>>> Github tracker. was: Re: [xwiki-users] New Realtime collaborative >>>>>> editing extension. Just a quick. You seem to introduce a practice to use >>>>>> the github tracker instead of xwiki.org jira's Not sure it's a good >>>>>> thing. I'm sure Vincent will agree >>>> Well, what I would prefer personally is that contrib projects be in the >>>> xwiki-contrib organization and use the XWiki tools (wiki, jira, etc). The >>>> reason is that this allows: * to group together projects around XWiki >>>> (they're not scattered everywhere on the web and harder to find) * make it >>>> a neutral location for people to collaborate together on xwiki projects. >>>> That's a key element to contribution IMO * is more long term. If you stop >>>> working on the project it's not going to be a dead project >>>> in someone's github repo and it'll have more chance of being >>>> maintained/seen in the xwiki-contrib repo I know Jerome also puts his >>>> contributions in his own github project and I had the same reservation >>>> about it. We can't force anyone of course since this is a contribution but >>>> it's more collaborative to make them xwiki-contrib project, following the >>>> rules defined at http://contrib.xwiki.org I understand you may want to >>>> beef up your github profile but for collaboration I feel the xwiki-contrib >>>> is better with the 2 arguments listed above. Jerome, Caleb let me know >>>> what you think. >>> >>> >>> Hi Vincent, >>> >>> This is a interesting topic and there are several aspects to it. >>> >>> For me the "discoverability" argument for having projects on >>> https://github.com/xwiki-contribdoes not make much sense. The centralized >>> place for projects around XWiki is http://extensions.xwiki.org, not github. >>> There's the "view source" button that tells where the sources are. Github >>> is a convenience here, and it's always possible to "copy" (or fork) a >>> project in xwiki-contrib, for whatever reason (original project not active, >>> etc.). >>> >>> That being said I understand why you think it's better to have as much >>> projects as possible under the xwiki-contrib umbrella : it makes it a >>> one-stop shop with the same tools, same workflow, same permissions, etc. >>> >>> Here are the arguments I see for why one contributor or contributing >>> organization would want to host its projects itself : >>> - use of own tools and own workflow (github issues vs. JIRA for example). >>> - it allows a contributor or contributing organization to have it's own >>> place to centralize its contribution(s) (the "beef up" argument as you >>> say). I think this can make sense in some circonstances, especially for >>> contributing organizations (companies for example). >>> >>> The bottom line comes down to : what rules do we want for using the >>> "org.xwiki.contrib" groupId and tools (maven repos, CI, etc.) ? >>> If we want a rule saying that the project should be hosted on >>> github.com/xwiki-contrib/ then that's that, and I think it's fair. We just >>> have to decide on it (right now there is no such rule according to >>> http://contrib.xwiki.org/). >>> >>> Jerome >>> >>> >>>> Thanks -Vincent >>>>>> Ludovic Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 23 oct. 2012 à 04:17, Caleb James >>>>>> DeLisle <[email protected]> a écrit : >>>>>>> One other thing, please report the features which you want and what you >>>>>>> imagine as best on the github tracker, it's easier to close an issue as >>>>>>> "won't fix" than it is to remember an important issue which nobody >>>>>>> wrote down ;) Thanks Caleb On 10/22/2012 10:14 PM, Caleb James DeLisle >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, Thanks for the complement. I just updated it and fixed issue #1. >>>>>>>> Thanks for reporting it. Somehow showing who else is editing, showing >>>>>>>> where they are editing in the document and allowing the user to spawn >>>>>>>> a chat window with other editors on the page are all interesting >>>>>>>> possibilities. Right now I think the thing to do is decide where there >>>>>>>> is the most bang for your buck in terms of feature value and get an >>>>>>>> idea of what's most natural for the user. Thanks, Caleb On 10/19/2012 >>>>>>>> 07:59 AM, >>>>>>>> Ryszard Łach wrote: >>>>>>>>> Great work! It looks like good starting point to give xwiki the main >>>>>>>>> (at least for me) feature, that makes googledoc sometimes more >>>>>>>>> suitable for collaborative editing. It would be really great, if your >>>>>>>>> editor would show somehow, where the other editor (person) is now, >>>>>>>>> where is his cursor. Maybe a highlight (the whole line) showing the >>>>>>>>> other's cursor placement? Do you plan to work on such improvements? >>>>>>>>> R. >>>> _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
