On 11/07/2012 09:35 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caleb and all,
On Nov 5, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Caleb James DeLisle <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hello,
My opinion of github is not very bright, there's vender lockin because you
can't easily migrate
issues and other value addeds and they don't open source their platform so
while git allows you
to push somewhere else, you can't have the nice web interface with the features
without going through
them.
That said, it is hard to argue with 3 clicks and a `git push`.
While it would be easy to dismiss me as "lazy", I see this dismissal as a huge
problem for the free
software movement in general. Why should an ordinary person ask for permission
to use xwiki-contrib
then make sure their pom.xml parent ID is in order when they could just do 3
clicks and a git push?
Because you get a lot more by being an xwiki-contrib project:
* CI
* Mailing list email notification
* Maven repository where to release versions
* JIRA, Wiki page (which you also get with github but that's about it)
* Sonar dashboard (coming up ;))
* Ability to collaborate with others through a mailing list and more generally
collaborate as equals with others rather than in a "creator/second level
citizen" mode
* Quality stats on xwiki.org on the hall of fame page (needs to be improved)
* More visibility since we reference xwiki contribs projects on xwiki.org even
more than pure extensions. Note that we need to improve this part which is not
fully true ATM but which we could easily make true
* More generally ability to benefit from best of breed tools that xwiki.org
offers and continue to update/improve in general
Jerome, isn't this compelling to you?
Granted XWiki is far better off than some projects, when I see copyright
release forms and patent
non-infringement statements which have to be signed, I find it mindboggling
that anyone would contribute
to these projects at all given all of the roadblocks which have been erected.
Actually we might have to do something about CLA in the future...
A good example of a social good also being more useful is Linux. I love Linux,
it is free software and
it is fast, even the giants such as Microsoft and Apple can't afford to
outspend the army of companies
who pour money into profiling, tweaking, optimizing, and refactoring Linux and
the result is a network
stack which blows the doors off of everyone else in the market. And it got that
way being free.
Now the question of how we should make xwiki-contrib more attractive than
$THE_OTHER_GUY is worth asking.
It is better for the contributor, they get continuous integration and issue
tracking, but none of it is
automated. Since we're all pretty busy and automating this process is probably
not on anybody's roadmap,
I think we're going to have to accept that it's easier to start off a small
project in one's own namespace
and then move when it grows and the contributor wants to take advantage of the
services in xwiki-contrib.
I don't really agree here. For a user asking to be on xwiki-contrib it's pretty
easy and all the work is done for them by xwiki committers. It would need to be
automated for xwiki committers' sake but not for the users asking ;)
If we don't at least understand this fundamental issue then the githubs and
facebooks of the world with
their 1 click walled gardens will win.
I think the list I've put above is pretty interesting for any project and it
can only grow as we improve our forge in the future. The biggest improvement
would probably be to offer a full wiki configured as a dev project flavor for
contrib projects which would contain (for ex):
- A dashboard with would have gadgets listing: latest jira issues, contributors
of the project, sonar quality gadgets, latest blog posts of the project, etc
- A Release application (similar to the one we have on dev.xwiki.org)
- A FAQ application
- Git stats using our Github Application
- Mailing list/forum application (the one Jeremie is working on :))
- etc
Jerome, would that be compelling enough? If not, what would make you want to be
an xwiki-contrib project? :)
Yes it's very nice, especially for big(ger) projects. For a lot of
projects, it's also too much tooling IMO (but of course one can use just
a subset).
TBH I don't think that not wanting to be an XWiki contrib project is an
issue that we should try to address (bringing more tools for example).
Personnally I'll continue to have some projects under xwiki-contrib and
others under other umbrellas, depending of where I see them fit.
Jerome.
One-click release maybe? ;) (note that for the maven part this is probably
possible through Jenkins)
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Caleb
On 11/05/2012 04:02 AM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
On 10/23/2012 09:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> wrote:
This should have been for devs Envoyé de mon iPhone Début du message transféré :
Expéditeur: Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> Date: 23 octobre 2012 09:19:55
UTC+02:00 Destinataire: XWiki Users <[email protected]> Objet: Github tracker. was: Re:
[xwiki-users] New Realtime collaborative editing extension. Just a quick. You seem to
introduce a practice to use the github tracker instead of xwiki.org jira's Not sure it's a
good thing. I'm sure Vincent will agree
Well, what I would prefer personally is that contrib projects be in the
xwiki-contrib organization and use the XWiki tools (wiki, jira, etc). The
reason is that this allows: * to group together projects around XWiki (they're
not scattered everywhere on the web and harder to find) * make it a neutral
location for people to collaborate together on xwiki projects. That's a key
element to contribution IMO * is more long term. If you stop working on the
project it's not going to be a dead project
in someone's github repo and it'll have more chance of being maintained/seen in
the xwiki-contrib repo I know Jerome also puts his contributions in his own
github project and I had the same reservation about it. We can't force anyone
of course since this is a contribution but it's more collaborative to make them
xwiki-contrib project, following the rules defined at http://contrib.xwiki.org
I understand you may want to beef up your github profile but for collaboration
I feel the xwiki-contrib
is better with the 2 arguments listed above. Jerome, Caleb let me know what you
think.
Hi Vincent,
This is a interesting topic and there are several aspects to it.
For me the "discoverability" argument for having projects on https://github.com/xwiki-contribdoes
not make much sense. The centralized place for projects around XWiki is http://extensions.xwiki.org, not
github. There's the "view source" button that tells where the sources are. Github is a convenience
here, and it's always possible to "copy" (or fork) a project in xwiki-contrib, for whatever reason
(original project not active, etc.).
That being said I understand why you think it's better to have as much projects
as possible under the xwiki-contrib umbrella : it makes it a one-stop shop with
the same tools, same workflow, same permissions, etc.
Here are the arguments I see for why one contributor or contributing
organization would want to host its projects itself :
- use of own tools and own workflow (github issues vs. JIRA for example).
- it allows a contributor or contributing organization to have it's own place to
centralize its contribution(s) (the "beef up" argument as you say). I think
this can make sense in some circonstances, especially for contributing organizations
(companies for example).
The bottom line comes down to : what rules do we want for using the
"org.xwiki.contrib" groupId and tools (maven repos, CI, etc.) ?
If we want a rule saying that the project should be hosted on
github.com/xwiki-contrib/ then that's that, and I think it's fair. We just have
to decide on it (right now there is no such rule according to
http://contrib.xwiki.org/).
Jerome
Thanks -Vincent
Ludovic Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 23 oct. 2012 à 04:17, Caleb James DeLisle
<[email protected]> a écrit :
One other thing, please report the features which you want and what you imagine as best
on the github tracker, it's easier to close an issue as "won't fix" than it is
to remember an important issue which nobody wrote down ;) Thanks Caleb On 10/22/2012
10:14 PM, Caleb James DeLisle wrote:
Hi, Thanks for the complement. I just updated it and fixed issue #1. Thanks for
reporting it. Somehow showing who else is editing, showing where they are
editing in the document and allowing the user to spawn a chat window with other
editors on the page are all interesting possibilities. Right now I think the
thing to do is decide where there is the most bang for your buck in terms of
feature value and get an idea of what's most natural for the user. Thanks,
Caleb On 10/19/2012 07:59 AM,
Ryszard Łach wrote:
Great work! It looks like good starting point to give xwiki the main (at least
for me) feature, that makes googledoc sometimes more suitable for collaborative
editing. It would be really great, if your editor would show somehow, where the
other editor (person) is now, where is his cursor. Maybe a highlight (the whole
line) showing the other's cursor placement? Do you plan to work on such
improvements? R.
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