Hi Anca, On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Anca Luca <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Edi, > > I sort of understand from this mail that you think I am "defending" the > dashboard on the homepage. I cannot figure out how you got that idea. > > The only thing I was saying in the previous mail is that 2 dashboards by > default don't make sense for me, because dashboard means to me overview and > I think we should rather make it easy for users to turn their homepage in a > proper overview rather than have 2 overviews. Because if we have the > dashboard separately (as today), then the Alices will create on the > homepage their own overview of the wiki, and then Bob, Billy and Bogdan > will have 2 of them. This is not necessarily bad, to be able to have > multiple dashboards, because you can imagine multiple facets of the same > wiki, but I think for a default wiki user is confusing (seeing the homepage > which is an overview and having a link on the right that takes to an > overview). > > When I said that the 2 personas need to be analyzed together it was more > about what kind of customization we promote to the admin (Alice). E.g. > explaining as a generic thing that they could include another page and they > could customize could be too generic for the need of Alice, which is to > create a proper welcome page for the B-boys. If we knew / decided on what > is a proper welcome page for the B-boys, then we could make a choice about > how to allow Alice to take ownership, encourage editing, etc AND, in > addition, go towards the "users oriented homepage". > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Anca, > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Anca Luca <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hello Edi, > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Anca Luca <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > so on the topic of "removing the dashboard from the homepage" and > if > > > > people > > > > > need it they can access it independently. > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, this dashboard does not really exist or have any > value > > > > > beyond the homepage. I mean, what does it mean, what is it used for > > > > besides > > > > > the homepage? What would the dashboard be used other than having an > > > > > overview of the wiki? And if people remove it from the homepage of > > the > > > > > wiki, what would they put instead? An overview of the wiki? Isn't > > that > > > > what > > > > > dashboard means? > > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea of this proposal was that the homepage should be customized > by > > > the > > > > admin. It should be a homepage. Instead of a Dashboard, it should > > contain > > > > information about the purpose of the wiki, information for newcomers, > > > > information about the organization, some video, etc. All of this we > > plan > > > to > > > > encourage the admins to customize so that they "take ownership" of > > their > > > > wiki instead of seeing it as just a tool with default settings. Some > > may > > > > see disadvantages to this, and prefer default tools, but others may > see > > > the > > > > value of getting the user/admin involved. > > > > > > > > The Dashboard should be seen as a place to go to in order to see what > > is > > > > going on. Dashboards in the wild also tend to be customizable per > users > > > (we > > > > technically support that as well, but it could be improved, i.e. > have a > > > > default user dashboard in the 'My dashboard' section in the user > > profile > > > > instead of the empty space that is right now in view mode, promote it > > > more, > > > > etc.). They also tend to be used by more technical people > > > > > > > > Once the admin is involved and now aware of how to do things, he can > > > easily > > > > include the dashboard on the homepage if that is his view on the > > purpose > > > of > > > > his wiki. We can even propose it in the default content of the > > homepage. > > > > > > > > What you choose depends a lot on the usecase you have for your wiki, > > i.e. > > > > what flavor you`re using. For example, a dashboard is good for > > > > intranet/groupware but not that good for public websites. We are > > > > considering here what we want the default experience to > offer/encourage > > > and > > > > maybe we should not really focus on/be influenced by any of the > > > flavors/use > > > > cases we are having in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By this logic, I would find it strange to have a homepage and a > > > > dashboard, > > > > > as 2 separate entities, because for me they would mean the same > > thing. > > > So > > > > > multiple possibilities: > > > > > 1/ our _default_ dashboard displayed on the homepage (included or > > not, > > > I > > > > > don't care) is not good enough because it does not offer a good > > > _default_ > > > > > overview of the wiki. We need to change the dashboard. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not part of the use cases [1] extracted from previous > > > discussions. > > > > Are you proposing that we add "offer a good overview of the wiki" as > a > > > new > > > > use case/goal or is this just a rewording of UC5 (navigation) ? > > > > > > > > > That would be proposal 1 here: > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal1Keepcurrenthomepagefixproblems > rather than a UC. > > Since I don't know anymore what this mail is about and I am sure we're > gonna get lost in details, here is my proposal (corresponsad to by option > 2) expressed in the initial mail): > This thread is about Proposal3: Simplified Home Page, as the subject of the OP suggests. It would be awesome if we could keep discussions on topic for the future, on their separate threads. It's already hard to manage as it is, but no harm done. > > * By default the home page is a regular wiki page, with some text in it, > that demonstrates all the features of the wiki, something like a Sandbox > webhome. This should cover a couple of the usecases for Alice admin that > needs to understand how wiki works. Also, she will be able to edit the > homepage like a regular page. > * Next to the edit button of this page, we add a button with an UIExtension > which will say: "Turn this homepage in a dashboard with gadgets". Upon > click, we open a wizard where we explain a bit what's gonna happen **and > also that history rollback can always be used to fix whatever we might have > done**. The wizard will put a dashboard macro on the homepage, force the > default edit mode to be inline, add a couple of gadgets already (some of > the most used, etc) and will take the admin back to edit mode of this page, > which she will customize as she pleases. > * There is no link to a dashboard in the menu, the dashboard on > Dashboard.WebHome does not exist anymore. The homepage will be a dashboard > itself (and not include a dashboard). > Thanks! Adding your proposal to the http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals list. > Ideally, the way I see this used is that when the admin is done > experimenting and has full ownership, they will click this dashboard button > and create a dashboard for the wiki to give to B users. Why dashboard and > not any other thing, like a page include or free text? Mainly because I > think the dashboard is an interesting usecase for the users (B), with the > proper gadgets available, of course, and directing the Admin A towards that > usecase could help noob admins that don't want to understand all the > concepts of the wiki to have a nice homepage. > Indeed, whatever we go with, we need to be careful not to bother lazy admins too much. > I just thought of another quite frequent usecase for the homepage for the > users B, which is the homepage of an application (when the wiki is fully > dedicated to an application). Sounds a lot like "UC4: (optional) The user needs to be able to easily set an application as his homepage (i.e. use a dashboard, user directory, etc.; mostly the case for subwikis)" > I think this should be a preference setting > for admin A, not an include. As in, the Main.WebHome will not include the > other application homepage, but the wiki will actually land on a different > page when accessed. This configuration could be done in the preferences of > the wiki. The case of including pages in the home could be limiting for the > panels or space specific skin (if the application has specific panels, like > the blog, then the same panels would need to be configured on the whole > wiki in order for the usecase "land directly in application blog" to be > fulfilled). This would mean > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage > . Note that this proposal does not collide with the proposal I made above > about the dashboard. > > I agree about Proposal 4 that it can also be seen as a new feature to be implemented in the future that can be done independently on what we choose for the default homepage approach. Added this note on the proposal's analysis page. Thanks, Eduard > Thanks, > Anca > > > > > > > > > > I need to think a little more about this in order to make a complete > > > answer, but I read the list of usecases and I remarked one thing: > > > > > > In all UC1 to UC5, I think your "user" is more of an "admin" than a > > user. I > > > see the following flow in working with a wiki: > > > Alice downloads the wiki and plays around with it locally, tests it and > > > checks its features. Then, she is convinced by the tool and decides to > > move > > > this to the next level and install the wiki on a server (or get it > > > installed) so that she can collaborate with her colleagues, Bob, Billy > > and > > > Bogdan. To me Alice is not a user, she's more like a wiki admin. Then > > when > > > the wiki is installed on the server, the three B boys are the users and > > > Alice might become a user as well, or might always stay a little more > > > admin. When she moves from her private tests to a public tool, Alice > > > prepares the homepage of the wiki so that it matches the purpose of the > > > wiki and the B boys. Alice will need to "UC3: The user needs to be able > > to > > > easily replace the home page with his content" but the B boys won't. > > > > > > > > I think you`ve perfectly described what we want to do with the homepage > > (*in this proposal*), and yes, the user we are interested in in this case > > is the admin (Alice) that we want to encourage to take ownership of the > > wiki she is going to present to the wiki's users (B-boys) instead of > > offering them a vanilla "Untitled Document" experience :) > > > > I think that the admin (Alice) homepage needs cannot be analysed > > > independently from the user (Bob, Billy and Bogdan) homepage needs, > > because > > > we risk to provide the admin with customization tools that they will > > never > > > need because the user will never need such a customization. > > > > > > > In a way, that is exactly what the Dashboard is doing: it is *a tool* > that > > the user is presented with by default and which he might not need (and > has > > no idea how to get rid of). > > > > This proposal was about promoting more the wiki itself (not customization > > tools) and empowering the user that will deploy it so that he can provide > > an optimum experience to his users. We can`t really do much for the > variety > > of use cases and users out there that might be using XWiki, but the admin > > can (*if he is able to*, and this is what this proposal is pushing for). > > > > The Dashboard is nice, no argument there, but it is just *a tool*, among > > others, that the admin could choose to use or not. > > > > Still, this is currently just one proposal amongst others [1]. > > > > Thanks, > > Eduard > > > > ---------- > > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Anca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this case, we > > > > > improve the way we modify this dashboard, to allow people to change > > the > > > > > "default" overview which guides the user through the wiki with an > > > > overview > > > > > that is more adapted to the user's usecase. > > > > > 2/ we change the homepage and we remove the dashboard from it and > > > > implement > > > > > an overview of the wiki differently (which would still be a > dashboard > > > at > > > > > the conceptual level but implemented differently). In this case, > the > > > > > Dashboard.WebHome should be removed completely from the menu, > because > > > the > > > > > dashboard _is_ the home page (see my remark above) :) . We can make > > the > > > > > homepage a regular page so that users can edit it very easily by > > > default, > > > > > but we also allow them to easily make it a dashboard with gadgets > and > > > > drag > > > > > & drop, so that they can organize their content. I am thinking for > > > > example > > > > > of a button on the homepage, in view mode injected with javascript > or > > > UI > > > > > extension or I don't know, which runs a script that creates a new > > > version > > > > > of the homepage which contains a dashboard macro call and a default > > > > gadget > > > > > and the user is taken to the edit mode of the homepage, with the > > > > dashboard > > > > > editor in it. > > > > > > > > > > The only reason why the dashboard is separate now, in > > > Dashboard.WebHome, > > > > is > > > > > for legacy reasons, because it used to be included as the homepage > of > > > all > > > > > sort of default spaces, so we needed something that can be re-used > > for > > > > > spaces homes as well. Otherwise, from my point of view, it does not > > > need > > > > to > > > > > be a separate entity. I mean, one should be able to create as many > > > > > dashboards as they'd want (on any page they want), but by default > the > > > > > dashboard of the wiki is only one, the homepage of the wiki. > > > > > > > > > > Anca > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, [email protected] < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > As you know I started working on a Home Page Application, see: > > > > > > - JIRA with screenshots: > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10586 > > > > > > - Discussion thread: > http://markmail.org/message/ghelufamwucog46x > > > > > > > > > > > > I have it all done locally but I refrained from committing it > > because > > > > on > > > > > > the email thread some expressed their doubts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I started thinking about it and I expressed some idea in the > thread > > > > > > started by Caty about "Wiki - Space - Page concepts pitch": > > > > > > http://markmail.org/message/jefze7nvprz36pkw > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m pasting it here again for discussion (with some edits): > > > > > > > > > > > > " > > > > > > BTW concerning the home page, I’m more and more leaning towards > > > > removing > > > > > > the dashboard from it (it’s accessible from the App panel anyway) > > and > > > > > > instead have it contain: > > > > > > - explanation about how the wiki is organized (wikis, spaces, > > pages) > > > > > > - explanation about base concepts (editing, saving, etc) > > > > > > - encourage the user to edit this home page to make it his own > and > > > put > > > > > the > > > > > > content he wishes instead > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this would solve the following issues: > > > > > > - users always want to customize the home page and this makes it > > easy > > > > > > (it’s a standard page, no dashboard). This is also a way for them > > to > > > > take > > > > > > ownership of the wiki as theirs. > > > > > > - explains the main concepts of wiki, space, page > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, we also need to provide a navigation panel for easy > > > > navigation > > > > > > in the wiki/spaces/pages. > > > > > > “ > > > > > > > > > > > > If we agree about the idea of removing the dashboard and instead > > > have a > > > > > > simple page then we’ll need to discuss the exact content and for > > that > > > > I’m > > > > > > proposing to discuss with Caty/GuillaumeD and make a proposal for > > > > further > > > > > > discussion. Of course any idea in reply to this email would also > be > > > > much > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > But first things first! We first need to decide if this is a good > > > idea > > > > or > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > devs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > devs mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
