On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> wrote: > Hi Edi, > > I sort of understand from this mail that you think I am "defending" the > dashboard on the homepage. I cannot figure out how you got that idea. > > The only thing I was saying in the previous mail is that 2 dashboards by > default don't make sense for me, because dashboard means to me overview and > I think we should rather make it easy for users to turn their homepage in a > proper overview rather than have 2 overviews. Because if we have the > dashboard separately (as today), then the Alices will create on the > homepage their own overview of the wiki, and then Bob, Billy and Bogdan > will have 2 of them. This is not necessarily bad, to be able to have > multiple dashboards, because you can imagine multiple facets of the same > wiki, but I think for a default wiki user is confusing (seeing the homepage > which is an overview and having a link on the right that takes to an > overview). > > When I said that the 2 personas need to be analyzed together it was more > about what kind of customization we promote to the admin (Alice). E.g. > explaining as a generic thing that they could include another page and they > could customize could be too generic for the need of Alice, which is to > create a proper welcome page for the B-boys. If we knew / decided on what > is a proper welcome page for the B-boys, then we could make a choice about > how to allow Alice to take ownership, encourage editing, etc AND, in > addition, go towards the "users oriented homepage". > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Anca, >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> wrote: >> >> > Hello Edi, >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Anca Luca <lu...@xwiki.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hello all, >> > > > >> > > > so on the topic of "removing the dashboard from the homepage" and if >> > > people >> > > > need it they can access it independently. >> > > > >> > > > In my opinion, this dashboard does not really exist or have any >> value >> > > > beyond the homepage. I mean, what does it mean, what is it used for >> > > besides >> > > > the homepage? What would the dashboard be used other than having an >> > > > overview of the wiki? And if people remove it from the homepage of >> the >> > > > wiki, what would they put instead? An overview of the wiki? Isn't >> that >> > > what >> > > > dashboard means? >> > > > >> > > >> > > The idea of this proposal was that the homepage should be customized >> by >> > the >> > > admin. It should be a homepage. Instead of a Dashboard, it should >> contain >> > > information about the purpose of the wiki, information for newcomers, >> > > information about the organization, some video, etc. All of this we >> plan >> > to >> > > encourage the admins to customize so that they "take ownership" of >> their >> > > wiki instead of seeing it as just a tool with default settings. Some >> may >> > > see disadvantages to this, and prefer default tools, but others may >> see >> > the >> > > value of getting the user/admin involved. >> > > >> > > The Dashboard should be seen as a place to go to in order to see what >> is >> > > going on. Dashboards in the wild also tend to be customizable per >> users >> > (we >> > > technically support that as well, but it could be improved, i.e. have >> a >> > > default user dashboard in the 'My dashboard' section in the user >> profile >> > > instead of the empty space that is right now in view mode, promote it >> > more, >> > > etc.). They also tend to be used by more technical people >> > > >> > > Once the admin is involved and now aware of how to do things, he can >> > easily >> > > include the dashboard on the homepage if that is his view on the >> purpose >> > of >> > > his wiki. We can even propose it in the default content of the >> homepage. >> > > >> > > What you choose depends a lot on the usecase you have for your wiki, >> i.e. >> > > what flavor you`re using. For example, a dashboard is good for >> > > intranet/groupware but not that good for public websites. We are >> > > considering here what we want the default experience to >> offer/encourage >> > and >> > > maybe we should not really focus on/be influenced by any of the >> > flavors/use >> > > cases we are having in mind. >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > By this logic, I would find it strange to have a homepage and a >> > > dashboard, >> > > > as 2 separate entities, because for me they would mean the same >> thing. >> > So >> > > > multiple possibilities: >> > > > 1/ our _default_ dashboard displayed on the homepage (included or >> not, >> > I >> > > > don't care) is not good enough because it does not offer a good >> > _default_ >> > > > overview of the wiki. We need to change the dashboard. >> > > >> > > >> > > This is not part of the use cases [1] extracted from previous >> > discussions. >> > > Are you proposing that we add "offer a good overview of the wiki" as a >> > new >> > > use case/goal or is this just a rewording of UC5 (navigation) ? >> > > >> > > > That would be proposal 1 here: > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal1Keepcurrenthomepagefixproblems > rather than a UC. > > Since I don't know anymore what this mail is about and I am sure we're > gonna get lost in details, here is my proposal (corresponsad to by option > 2) expressed in the initial mail): >
(corresponds to my option 2 expressed in my initial mail on this thread) -- just to make all crystal clear > * By default the home page is a regular wiki page, with some text in it, > that demonstrates all the features of the wiki, something like a Sandbox > webhome. This should cover a couple of the usecases for Alice admin that > needs to understand how wiki works. Also, she will be able to edit the > homepage like a regular page. > * Next to the edit button of this page, we add a button with an > UIExtension which will say: "Turn this homepage in a dashboard with > gadgets". Upon click, we open a wizard where we explain a bit what's gonna > happen **and also that history rollback can always be used to fix whatever > we might have done**. The wizard will put a dashboard macro on the > homepage, force the default edit mode to be inline, add a couple of gadgets > already (some of the most used, etc) and will take the admin back to edit > mode of this page, which she will customize as she pleases. > * There is no link to a dashboard in the menu, the dashboard on > Dashboard.WebHome does not exist anymore. The homepage will be a dashboard > itself (and not include a dashboard). > > Ideally, the way I see this used is that when the admin is done > experimenting and has full ownership, they will click this dashboard button > and create a dashboard for the wiki to give to B users. Why dashboard and > not any other thing, like a page include or free text? Mainly because I > think the dashboard is an interesting usecase for the users (B), with the > proper gadgets available, of course, and directing the Admin A towards that > usecase could help noob admins that don't want to understand all the > concepts of the wiki to have a nice homepage. > > I just thought of another quite frequent usecase for the homepage for the > users B, which is the homepage of an application (when the wiki is fully > dedicated to an application). I think this should be a preference setting > for admin A, not an include. As in, the Main.WebHome will not include the > other application homepage, but the wiki will actually land on a different > page when accessed. This configuration could be done in the preferences of > the wiki. The case of including pages in the home could be limiting for the > panels or space specific skin (if the application has specific panels, like > the blog, then the same panels would need to be configured on the whole > wiki in order for the usecase "land directly in application blog" to be > fulfilled). This would mean > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage > . Note that this proposal does not collide with the proposal I made above > about the dashboard. > > Thanks, > Anca > > > > >> > >> > I need to think a little more about this in order to make a complete >> > answer, but I read the list of usecases and I remarked one thing: >> > >> > In all UC1 to UC5, I think your "user" is more of an "admin" than a >> user. I >> > see the following flow in working with a wiki: >> > Alice downloads the wiki and plays around with it locally, tests it and >> > checks its features. Then, she is convinced by the tool and decides to >> move >> > this to the next level and install the wiki on a server (or get it >> > installed) so that she can collaborate with her colleagues, Bob, Billy >> and >> > Bogdan. To me Alice is not a user, she's more like a wiki admin. Then >> when >> > the wiki is installed on the server, the three B boys are the users and >> > Alice might become a user as well, or might always stay a little more >> > admin. When she moves from her private tests to a public tool, Alice >> > prepares the homepage of the wiki so that it matches the purpose of the >> > wiki and the B boys. Alice will need to "UC3: The user needs to be able >> to >> > easily replace the home page with his content" but the B boys won't. >> > >> > >> I think you`ve perfectly described what we want to do with the homepage >> (*in this proposal*), and yes, the user we are interested in in this case >> is the admin (Alice) that we want to encourage to take ownership of the >> wiki she is going to present to the wiki's users (B-boys) instead of >> offering them a vanilla "Untitled Document" experience :) >> >> I think that the admin (Alice) homepage needs cannot be analysed >> > independently from the user (Bob, Billy and Bogdan) homepage needs, >> because >> > we risk to provide the admin with customization tools that they will >> never >> > need because the user will never need such a customization. >> > >> >> In a way, that is exactly what the Dashboard is doing: it is *a tool* that >> the user is presented with by default and which he might not need (and has >> no idea how to get rid of). >> >> This proposal was about promoting more the wiki itself (not customization >> tools) and empowering the user that will deploy it so that he can provide >> an optimum experience to his users. We can`t really do much for the >> variety >> of use cases and users out there that might be using XWiki, but the admin >> can (*if he is able to*, and this is what this proposal is pushing for). >> >> The Dashboard is nice, no argument there, but it is just *a tool*, among >> others, that the admin could choose to use or not. >> >> Still, this is currently just one proposal amongst others [1]. >> >> Thanks, >> Eduard >> >> ---------- >> [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals >> >> >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Anca >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Eduard >> > > >> > > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases >> > > >> > > >> > > > In this case, we >> > > > improve the way we modify this dashboard, to allow people to change >> the >> > > > "default" overview which guides the user through the wiki with an >> > > overview >> > > > that is more adapted to the user's usecase. >> > > > 2/ we change the homepage and we remove the dashboard from it and >> > > implement >> > > > an overview of the wiki differently (which would still be a >> dashboard >> > at >> > > > the conceptual level but implemented differently). In this case, the >> > > > Dashboard.WebHome should be removed completely from the menu, >> because >> > the >> > > > dashboard _is_ the home page (see my remark above) :) . We can make >> the >> > > > homepage a regular page so that users can edit it very easily by >> > default, >> > > > but we also allow them to easily make it a dashboard with gadgets >> and >> > > drag >> > > > & drop, so that they can organize their content. I am thinking for >> > > example >> > > > of a button on the homepage, in view mode injected with javascript >> or >> > UI >> > > > extension or I don't know, which runs a script that creates a new >> > version >> > > > of the homepage which contains a dashboard macro call and a default >> > > gadget >> > > > and the user is taken to the edit mode of the homepage, with the >> > > dashboard >> > > > editor in it. >> > > > >> > > > The only reason why the dashboard is separate now, in >> > Dashboard.WebHome, >> > > is >> > > > for legacy reasons, because it used to be included as the homepage >> of >> > all >> > > > sort of default spaces, so we needed something that can be re-used >> for >> > > > spaces homes as well. Otherwise, from my point of view, it does not >> > need >> > > to >> > > > be a separate entity. I mean, one should be able to create as many >> > > > dashboards as they'd want (on any page they want), but by default >> the >> > > > dashboard of the wiki is only one, the homepage of the wiki. >> > > > >> > > > Anca >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, vinc...@massol.net < >> > vinc...@massol.net> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi devs, >> > > > > >> > > > > As you know I started working on a Home Page Application, see: >> > > > > - JIRA with screenshots: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10586 >> > > > > - Discussion thread: http://markmail.org/message/ghelufamwucog46x >> > > > > >> > > > > I have it all done locally but I refrained from committing it >> because >> > > on >> > > > > the email thread some expressed their doubts. >> > > > > >> > > > > I started thinking about it and I expressed some idea in the >> thread >> > > > > started by Caty about "Wiki - Space - Page concepts pitch": >> > > > > http://markmail.org/message/jefze7nvprz36pkw >> > > > > >> > > > > I’m pasting it here again for discussion (with some edits): >> > > > > >> > > > > " >> > > > > BTW concerning the home page, I’m more and more leaning towards >> > > removing >> > > > > the dashboard from it (it’s accessible from the App panel anyway) >> and >> > > > > instead have it contain: >> > > > > - explanation about how the wiki is organized (wikis, spaces, >> pages) >> > > > > - explanation about base concepts (editing, saving, etc) >> > > > > - encourage the user to edit this home page to make it his own and >> > put >> > > > the >> > > > > content he wishes instead >> > > > > >> > > > > I think this would solve the following issues: >> > > > > - users always want to customize the home page and this makes it >> easy >> > > > > (it’s a standard page, no dashboard). This is also a way for them >> to >> > > take >> > > > > ownership of the wiki as theirs. >> > > > > - explains the main concepts of wiki, space, page >> > > > > >> > > > > Of course, we also need to provide a navigation panel for easy >> > > navigation >> > > > > in the wiki/spaces/pages. >> > > > > “ >> > > > > >> > > > > If we agree about the idea of removing the dashboard and instead >> > have a >> > > > > simple page then we’ll need to discuss the exact content and for >> that >> > > I’m >> > > > > proposing to discuss with Caty/GuillaumeD and make a proposal for >> > > further >> > > > > discussion. Of course any idea in reply to this email would also >> be >> > > much >> > > > > appreciated. >> > > > > >> > > > > But first things first! We first need to decide if this is a good >> > idea >> > > or >> > > > > not. >> > > > > >> > > > > WDYT? >> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks >> > > > > -Vincent >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > devs mailing list >> > > > > devs@xwiki.org >> > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > devs mailing list >> > > > devs@xwiki.org >> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > devs mailing list >> > > devs@xwiki.org >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > devs mailing list >> > devs@xwiki.org >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> devs mailing list >> devs@xwiki.org >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> > > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
