On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Edy, > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How > > does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root > > document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it? > Also, > > is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to be a child of this > > implicit root document? > > > > Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to > make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top > homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just > "[[]]"!). > > > > What we currently do is that we have the Main Wiki > Current Wiki > Top > > Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to > > "Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This > does > > not mean that the linked document is the parent of "Top Level Document". > > The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The > homepage > > of that wiki may be different, but that does not make the homepage > document > > a parent of the "Top Level Document". > > > > Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one: > > - Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document > > Child Document hierarchy > - Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child > Document hierarchy > > Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live > under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but > we can't really avoid it at the moment. > > > > If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the parent of top level > > documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius > > exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces > (Nested > > Document) to be the homepage for his personalized wiki. > > > No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home > page to be changed to begin with :-) > > > > We want to allow more configuration in contrast to requiring more > > code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a > fixed > > homepage document). > > > > Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and let the user put a > {{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale > behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click > on the "Edit" button)... > > I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's > > better to make a slight effort in understanding why something happens > and, > > once understood, you either agree with it or live with it, but in both > > cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution > > that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect. > > > > Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have > is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You > can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home, > first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it > gets hidden in Javascript... > Yes, that was a bug caused by a limitation of the initial implementation. It`s now fixed by http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12592 and will be included in the 7.2 final release. Thanks, Eduard > > Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things > only as needed. We'll see how things goes. > > > > I`m curious how this turns out in practice. > > > > So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in > :-) > > Best, > > Guillaume > > > > Thanks, > > Eduard > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Marius, > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > > > > > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test > > XE > > > > 7.2 > > > > > last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was > > > > > surprised by the current behavior :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' > icon, > > > but > > > > is > > > > >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and > > is > > > > >> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the > location > > > of > > > > the > > > > >> homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but > the > > > > > underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing > with > > > > > nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the > > > > > homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level > > > > folder > > > > > on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I > > > don't > > > > > understand why that would be useful. > > > > > > > > The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be > > > > precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on > > > > that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main > space > > > > is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also > > > > at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When > you > > > > access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but > > > > someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing > (other > > > > than > > > > > "this feature existed before")? > > > > > > > > > > Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, > vs. > > > > pages > > > > >> inside the Main space, while having the limited number of > exceptions > > > > >> created for the breadcrumb. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I think there are 2 separate problems here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in > the > > > > "Main" > > > > > space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level > > > pages > > > > > > > > Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and > > > > Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the > > > > document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion. > > > > > > > > > > I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how > > > end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well > enough > > > XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin > with > > > and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space > > by > > > itself. > > > > > > However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh > > new > > > user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page, > I > > > create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That > > > doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That > > new > > > page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I > mean? > > > > > > As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical > > > limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome > > them > > > in the short amount of time that we have as part of the 7.2 release > > > timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live > > > with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create > > > confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > 2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a coherent manner > > > > > > > > > > For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. > > > "Main" > > > > > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the > > management > > > of > > > > > your wiki. > > > > > > > > > > I'm discussing the answer for 2. below. > > > > > > > > > > Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' > Imagine > > > > that > > > > >> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the > > > homepage > > > > >> space? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to > be > > > > > "Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to > > > reflect > > > > > it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself. > > > > > > > > > > I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and > that > > > we > > > > > *need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role > > > played > > > > > by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd > > > rather > > > > > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be > > the > > > > > whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is > exactly > > > > what > > > > > has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as > > > > >> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a > link > > > for > > > > >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space > > can > > > > >> contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an > > > > 'optional' > > > > >> space. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own > > document > > > at > > > > > the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as > > > > > Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she > should > > > see > > > > > only the home icon. > > > > > > > > > > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push > > things > > > > one > > > > > step further in the direction that has already been established. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > >> Caty > > > > >> > > > > >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi Edy, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru < > > > [email protected]> > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Hi, > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented > it > > > in > > > > a > > > > >> > small > > > > >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to > > be > > > > >> > mentioned > > > > >> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current > wiki's > > > > >> homepage > > > > >> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be > changed > > > from > > > > >> > > administration). > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in > > the > > > > >> context > > > > >> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as > > > > >> ".../A/B/C" > > > > >> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and > > > cannot > > > > be > > > > >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change > > the > > > > fact > > > > >> > that the top page is the same. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular > user > > > > lands > > > > >> on > > > > >> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he > > > clicked > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and > > > > presses > > > > >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, > > more > > > > often > > > > >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a > > top > > > > level > > > > >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current > > homepage. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home > page > > be > > > > >> simply > > > > >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of > > > > >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under > > *https:// > > > > >> > <server>/ > > > > >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https:// > > <server>/A/B* > > > > and > > > > >> so > > > > >> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix > > > your > > > > >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > > expected > > > > >> level. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Image the homepage gets changed to > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage". > > > > >> > > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake > > IMO > > > > (and > > > > >> by > > > > >> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document > > > > >> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument". > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature > in > > > the > > > > >> > context of nested spaces. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical > > > > reason > > > > >> in > > > > >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the > > result > > > > being > > > > >> > an > > > > >> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of > the > > > > >> homepage > > > > >> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply > do > > > so. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the > benefit > > > > >> justifies > > > > >> > > it. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of > > > > nested > > > > >> > spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know > exactly > > > > where > > > > >> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for > Main > > > > breaks > > > > >> > this. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't > > > understand > > > > why > > > > >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and "Home" text. Why > > keep > > > > both > > > > >> > when the icon would be enough? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thanks, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Guillaume > > > > >> > > > > > >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already > had > > 2 > > > > >> > > eyebrows raised on this topic :) ) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > > > >> > > Eduard > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > --------- > > > > >> > > [1] > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusingtheAddPageaction > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > >> [email protected]> > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Hi Devs, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 > today) > > > > and I > > > > >> > was > > > > >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good! > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" > > > > space is > > > > >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I > > > > clicked > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page. > > > > Here's > > > > >> > what > > > > >> > > I > > > > >> > > > got: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Although I was expecting this: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, > and > > > > >> whether > > > > >> > it > > > > >> > > > had been discussed before? > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Congrats & Thanks, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Guillaume > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
