Who said anything about refining the sugar? As I am reading Dr. Karve's posts, I am thinking of raw sugar which is pretty cheap in Central America where I work, or using the cachasa; kind of molasses which floats top and is skimmed off in Artisanal sugar production, which is a waste product anyway.
For small farmers in the tropics small patches of sugarcane or sorghum could easily provide this quantity of sugar needed to fertilize a small holding ;in which case there is no need for refining just production of juice calculation of sugar levels and application in liquid of the correct amount. On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 9:09 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Regarding sugar as a soil amendment: > > Consider the environmental cost of growing cane (or other sugar rich > plant) and that of refining the sugar. Putting aside any supposed benefit, > this should give pause to the "idea" being discussed! > > Mel > > > > > > > > > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Anand Karve) > > 2. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Jean-Luc Sallustro) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:02:23 +0800 > > From: Anand Karve <[email protected]> > > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. > > Message-ID: > > < > cacpy7sfafys8ozk0phppsqmqp-hdhkaekt9-4c0qg-zszon...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear Jean-Luc, > > on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific > > value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, > > they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many > > sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows > > of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough > > the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. > > Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost > > doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come > > directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through > > the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green > > matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the > > fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very > > fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in > > our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is > > contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic > > residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic > > micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their > > numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the > > process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the > > capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of > > microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil > > condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate > > solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen > > deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than > > the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic > > microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival > > of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die > > of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, > > increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, > > such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they > > can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which > > category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to > > apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to > > apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. > > Yours > > A.D.Karve > > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Anand, > >> > >> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. > >> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this > >> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane > >> agronomy > >> (or other Poacae) > >> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, at > >> a > >> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is aerobic > >> and > >> particularly thermophilic. > >> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or > >> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose > >> and > >> hemicellulosis. > >> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar (I > >> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct enhancement > >> of > >> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this > >> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but > >> which > >> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral > >> nutrients > >> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type and > >> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). > >> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well known > >> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is > >> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), and > >> what > >> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this > >> superior > >> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked > >> bacterial > >> strains ? > >> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these > >> endemic > >> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when > >> stopping > >> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability ?" > >> All the best > >> Jean-Luc > >> > >> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : > >> > >> Dear Jean-Luc, > >> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. > >> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All > >> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground > >> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a > >> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a > >> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. > >> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall > >> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where > >> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of > >> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of > >> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is > >> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the > >> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed > >> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on > >> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this > >> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with > >> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of > >> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic > >> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in > >> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer > >> that European soils have. > >> Yours > >> A.D.Karve > >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> Dear A? D Karve > >>> > >>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a > >>> stage > >>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the > >>> humic > >>> clay complex. > >>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be > >>> depleted > >>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability of > >>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. > >>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be > >>> the > >>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that > >>> immedialty > >>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) > >>> Regards > >>> J-L Sallustro > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Digestion mailing list > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > >> [email protected] > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > >> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > >> for more information about digestion, see > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Digestion mailing list > >> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > >> [email protected] > >> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > >> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > >> > >> for more information about digestion, see > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > *** > > Dr. A.D. Karve > > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) > > > > *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:16 +0400 > > From: Jean-Luc Sallustro > > <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. > > Message-ID: <1309877116.2371.43.camel@laptop-jls> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" > > > > Dear Anand, > > > > I shall stress on the fact that we, in Mauritius and elsewhere in > > Africa, are fighting against this abusive use of chemical fertilizers. > > This battle is at a point that one of our subsidiary is totally devoted > > to a project which aims at producing organo-mineral fertilizer providing > > that we are supplied with compost and digestats issuing from several > > composting and biodigester plants we are builidng (treatment of poultry > > waste, sugar factory waste and ethanol distillery effluents, hostels > > organic waste ...) Then I totally agree with your assessment regarding > > the fact there is no inescapable need for chemical fertilizer. > > Now, my question was on the use of raw sugar not on the soundness of a > > biofertilization strategy. Once again I would like to stress on the fact > > that "sugar fertilization" seems to be a very interesting alternative > > to CMS for example. > > Let me rise again the point related to the comparison you make between > > sugar (as a low level polymerised carbonaceous compound) and cellulosis > > and hemicellulosis. For my understanding the very question is here to > > define what we call "organic matter", not in absolute terms of calorific > > value but through an ecological point of view then taking into account > > the complex interaction of microbial strains, macro decomposers, > > chemical role of water as a solvant, chemical role of clay as a substrat > > for H+ ions exchanges etc ... We all know a bit about NPK export from > > soils solutions to plants but it seems to me that we are not enough > > aware about organic matter, and worst about biomass in soils. As an > > example I have raised the fact that sugar will feed a particular class > > of microbes (and maybe other macro biotypes) and that will maybe imply > > that a lot of other bacterial strains will disappear or be weakened > > (celullosis decompostion ones). Do you have some observation to share on > > this point ? > > Best regards > > jean-luc > > > > > > Le mardi 05 juillet 2011 ? 11:02 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : > > > >> Dear Jean-Luc, > >> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific > >> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, > >> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many > >> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows > >> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough > >> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. > >> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost > >> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come > >> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through > >> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green > >> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the > >> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very > >> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in > >> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is > >> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic > >> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic > >> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their > >> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the > >> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the > >> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of > >> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil > >> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate > >> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen > >> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than > >> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic > >> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival > >> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die > >> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, > >> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, > >> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they > >> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which > >> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to > >> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to > >> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. > >> Yours > >> A.D.Karve > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Dear Anand, > >> > > >> > I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. > >> > Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this > >> > point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane > >> agronomy > >> > (or other Poacae) > >> > Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, > >> at a > >> > point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is > >> aerobic and > >> > particularly thermophilic. > >> > Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or > >> > complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose > >> and > >> > hemicellulosis. > >> > What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar > >> (I > >> > assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct > >> enhancement of > >> > soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this > >> > immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but > >> which > >> > strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral > >> nutrients > >> > to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type > >> and > >> > therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). > >> > The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well > >> known > >> > thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is > >> > always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), > >> and what > >> > is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this > >> superior > >> > soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked > >> bacterial > >> > strains ? > >> > My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these > >> endemic > >> > bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when > >> stopping > >> > "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability > >> ?" > >> > All the best > >> > Jean-Luc > >> > > >> > Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : > >> > > >> > Dear Jean-Luc, > >> > feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. > >> > The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All > >> > the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground > >> > below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a > >> > type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a > >> > carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. > >> > Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall > >> > on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where > >> > I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of > >> > applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of > >> > 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is > >> > applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the > >> > soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed > >> > consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on > >> > this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this > >> > period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with > >> > the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of > >> > fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic > >> > raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in > >> > India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer > >> > that European soils have. > >> > Yours > >> > A.D.Karve > >> > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Dear A D Karve > >> >> > >> >> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a > >> >> stage > >> >> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the > >> humic > >> >> clay complex. > >> >> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be > >> depleted > >> >> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability > >> of > >> >> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. > >> >> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be > >> the > >> >> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that > >> immedialty > >> >> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) > >> >> Regards > >> >> J-L Sallustro > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Digestion mailing list > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > >> > [email protected] > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > >> > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > >> > for more information about digestion, see > >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Digestion mailing list > >> > > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > >> > [email protected] > >> > > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > >> > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > >> > > >> > for more information about digestion, see > >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110705/06873915/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Digestion mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more information about digestion, see > > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > > > > > > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5 > > **************************************** > > > > > Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D. > Professor Emeritus > Rutgers University > > 105 Carmel Road > Wheeling, WV 26003 > 304.242.0341 > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > -- "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to repay with your money." Skype: Joshua.bogart Emial: [email protected]
_______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
