Dear Mel, we used sugar only in some of our lab experiments. On the field we use green leaves. Green leaves, on a dry matter basis, have the same nutritional calories as sugar. Yours A.D.Karve
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Regarding sugar as a soil amendment: > > Consider the environmental cost of growing cane (or other sugar rich > plant) and that of refining the sugar. Putting aside any supposed benefit, > this should give pause to the "idea" being discussed! > > Mel > > > > > > > >> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Anand Karve) >> 2. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Jean-Luc Sallustro) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:02:23 +0800 >> From: Anand Karve <[email protected]> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. >> Message-ID: >> <cacpy7sfafys8ozk0phppsqmqp-hdhkaekt9-4c0qg-zszon...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Dear Jean-Luc, >> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific >> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, >> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many >> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows >> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough >> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. >> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost >> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come >> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through >> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green >> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the >> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very >> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in >> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is >> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic >> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic >> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their >> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the >> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the >> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of >> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil >> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate >> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen >> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than >> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic >> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival >> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die >> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, >> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, >> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they >> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which >> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to >> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to >> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. >> Yours >> A.D.Karve >> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Dear Anand, >>> >>> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. >>> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this >>> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane >>> agronomy >>> (or other Poacae) >>> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, at >>> a >>> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is aerobic >>> and >>> particularly thermophilic. >>> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or >>> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose >>> and >>> hemicellulosis. >>> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar (I >>> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct enhancement >>> of >>> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this >>> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but >>> which >>> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral >>> nutrients >>> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type and >>> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). >>> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well known >>> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is >>> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), and >>> what >>> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this >>> superior >>> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked >>> bacterial >>> strains ? >>> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these >>> endemic >>> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when >>> stopping >>> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability ?" >>> All the best >>> Jean-Luc >>> >>> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >>> >>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. >>> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All >>> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground >>> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a >>> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a >>> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. >>> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall >>> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where >>> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of >>> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of >>> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is >>> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the >>> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed >>> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on >>> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this >>> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with >>> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of >>> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic >>> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in >>> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer >>> that European soils have. >>> Yours >>> A.D.Karve >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Dear A? D Karve >>>> >>>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a >>>> stage >>>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the >>>> humic >>>> clay complex. >>>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be >>>> depleted >>>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability of >>>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. >>>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be >>>> the >>>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that >>>> immedialty >>>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) >>>> Regards >>>> J-L Sallustro >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Digestion mailing list >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> [email protected] >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> for more information about digestion, see >>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Digestion mailing list >>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> [email protected] >>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> >>> for more information about digestion, see >>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *** >> Dr. A.D. Karve >> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) >> >> *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:16 +0400 >> From: Jean-Luc Sallustro >> <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. >> Message-ID: <1309877116.2371.43.camel@laptop-jls> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" >> >> Dear Anand, >> >> I shall stress on the fact that we, in Mauritius and elsewhere in >> Africa, are fighting against this abusive use of chemical fertilizers. >> This battle is at a point that one of our subsidiary is totally devoted >> to a project which aims at producing organo-mineral fertilizer providing >> that we are supplied with compost and digestats issuing from several >> composting and biodigester plants we are builidng (treatment of poultry >> waste, sugar factory waste and ethanol distillery effluents, hostels >> organic waste ...) Then I totally agree with your assessment regarding >> the fact there is no inescapable need for chemical fertilizer. >> Now, my question was on the use of raw sugar not on the soundness of a >> biofertilization strategy. Once again I would like to stress on the fact >> that "sugar fertilization" seems to be a very interesting alternative >> to CMS for example. >> Let me rise again the point related to the comparison you make between >> sugar (as a low level polymerised carbonaceous compound) and cellulosis >> and hemicellulosis. For my understanding the very question is here to >> define what we call "organic matter", not in absolute terms of calorific >> value but through an ecological point of view then taking into account >> the complex interaction of microbial strains, macro decomposers, >> chemical role of water as a solvant, chemical role of clay as a substrat >> for H+ ions exchanges etc ... We all know a bit about NPK export from >> soils solutions to plants but it seems to me that we are not enough >> aware about organic matter, and worst about biomass in soils. As an >> example I have raised the fact that sugar will feed a particular class >> of microbes (and maybe other macro biotypes) and that will maybe imply >> that a lot of other bacterial strains will disappear or be weakened >> (celullosis decompostion ones). Do you have some observation to share on >> this point ? >> Best regards >> jean-luc >> >> >> Le mardi 05 juillet 2011 ? 11:02 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >> >>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific >>> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, >>> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many >>> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows >>> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough >>> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. >>> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost >>> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come >>> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through >>> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green >>> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the >>> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very >>> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in >>> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is >>> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic >>> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic >>> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their >>> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the >>> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the >>> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of >>> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil >>> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate >>> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen >>> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than >>> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic >>> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival >>> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die >>> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, >>> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, >>> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they >>> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which >>> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to >>> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to >>> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. >>> Yours >>> A.D.Karve >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > Dear Anand, >>> > >>> > I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. >>> > Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this >>> > point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane >>> agronomy >>> > (or other Poacae) >>> > Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, >>> at a >>> > point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is >>> aerobic and >>> > particularly thermophilic. >>> > Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or >>> > complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose >>> and >>> > hemicellulosis. >>> > What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar >>> (I >>> > assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct >>> enhancement of >>> > soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this >>> > immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but >>> which >>> > strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral >>> nutrients >>> > to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type >>> and >>> > therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). >>> > The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well >>> known >>> > thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is >>> > always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), >>> and what >>> > is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this >>> superior >>> > soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked >>> bacterial >>> > strains ? >>> > My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these >>> endemic >>> > bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when >>> stopping >>> > "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability >>> ?" >>> > All the best >>> > Jean-Luc >>> > >>> > Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >>> > >>> > Dear Jean-Luc, >>> > feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. >>> > The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All >>> > the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground >>> > below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a >>> > type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a >>> > carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. >>> > Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall >>> > on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where >>> > I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of >>> > applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of >>> > 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is >>> > applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the >>> > soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed >>> > consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on >>> > this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this >>> > period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with >>> > the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of >>> > fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic >>> > raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in >>> > India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer >>> > that European soils have. >>> > Yours >>> > A.D.Karve >>> > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>> > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> Dear A D Karve >>> >> >>> >> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a >>> >> stage >>> >> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the >>> humic >>> >> clay complex. >>> >> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be >>> depleted >>> >> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability >>> of >>> >> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. >>> >> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be >>> the >>> >> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that >>> immedialty >>> >> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) >>> >> Regards >>> >> J-L Sallustro >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Digestion mailing list >>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> > [email protected] >>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> > for more information about digestion, see >>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Digestion mailing list >>> > >>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> > [email protected] >>> > >>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> > >>> > for more information about digestion, see >>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110705/06873915/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Digestion mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more information about digestion, see >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >> >> >> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5 >> **************************************** >> > > > Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D. > Professor Emeritus > Rutgers University > > 105 Carmel Road > Wheeling, WV 26003 > 304.242.0341 > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > -- *** Dr. A.D. Karve President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * _______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
