Dear Kamy, the green leaves are not a source of sugar but a source of organic carbon on which the soil microbes can feed. On dry weight basis, a kg of green leaves has the same calorific value as a kg of sugar. Can you please explain how the phytoremediation of well water is conducted with the help of trees? I have no idea of what you are talking about. Yours A.D.Karve
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Kamy Melvani <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Dr. Karve, > I have been following your ideas on the addition of green leaves as a source > of sugar to soil in order to increase productivity. > Could you perhaps explain if the addition of green leaves builds > polysaccharides (in humus) in the soil? > I have just completed the analysis of data related to an experiment in > phytoremediation of well water using native species of trees. > One significant finding is the decrease in electrical conductivity of well > water. > Please let me have your thoughts. > Thanks and regards, > Kamy Melvani, > NEO SYNTHESIS RESEARCH CENTRE, > SRI LANKA > > > > > > > > > On 7 Jul 2011, at 08:41, Anand Karve wrote: > >> Dear Mel, >> we used sugar only in some of our lab experiments. On the field we use >> green leaves. Green leaves, on a dry matter basis, have the same >> nutritional calories as sugar. >> Yours >> A.D.Karve >> >> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Regarding sugar as a soil amendment: >>> >>> Consider the environmental cost of growing cane (or other sugar rich >>> plant) and that of refining the sugar. Putting aside any supposed benefit, >>> this should give pause to the "idea" being discussed! >>> >>> Mel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> >>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>> >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Anand Karve) >>>> 2. Re: Digestate as fertilizer. (Jean-Luc Sallustro) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:02:23 +0800 >>>> From: Anand Karve <[email protected]> >>>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <cacpy7sfafys8ozk0phppsqmqp-hdhkaekt9-4c0qg-zszon...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>>> >>>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>>> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific >>>> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, >>>> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many >>>> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows >>>> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough >>>> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. >>>> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost >>>> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come >>>> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through >>>> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green >>>> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the >>>> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very >>>> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in >>>> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is >>>> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic >>>> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic >>>> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their >>>> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the >>>> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the >>>> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of >>>> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil >>>> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate >>>> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen >>>> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than >>>> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic >>>> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival >>>> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die >>>> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, >>>> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, >>>> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they >>>> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which >>>> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to >>>> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to >>>> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. >>>> Yours >>>> A.D.Karve >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Dear Anand, >>>>> >>>>> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. >>>>> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this >>>>> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane >>>>> agronomy >>>>> (or other Poacae) >>>>> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, at >>>>> a >>>>> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is aerobic >>>>> and >>>>> particularly thermophilic. >>>>> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or >>>>> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose >>>>> and >>>>> hemicellulosis. >>>>> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar (I >>>>> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct enhancement >>>>> of >>>>> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this >>>>> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but >>>>> which >>>>> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral >>>>> nutrients >>>>> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type and >>>>> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). >>>>> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well known >>>>> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is >>>>> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), and >>>>> what >>>>> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this >>>>> superior >>>>> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked >>>>> bacterial >>>>> strains ? >>>>> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these >>>>> endemic >>>>> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when >>>>> stopping >>>>> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability ?" >>>>> All the best >>>>> Jean-Luc >>>>> >>>>> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >>>>> >>>>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>>>> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. >>>>> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All >>>>> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground >>>>> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a >>>>> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a >>>>> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. >>>>> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall >>>>> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where >>>>> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of >>>>> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of >>>>> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is >>>>> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the >>>>> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed >>>>> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on >>>>> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this >>>>> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with >>>>> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of >>>>> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic >>>>> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in >>>>> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer >>>>> that European soils have. >>>>> Yours >>>>> A.D.Karve >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Dear A? D Karve >>>>>> >>>>>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a >>>>>> stage >>>>>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the >>>>>> humic >>>>>> clay complex. >>>>>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be >>>>>> depleted >>>>>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability of >>>>>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. >>>>>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be >>>>>> the >>>>>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that >>>>>> immedialty >>>>>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> J-L Sallustro >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Digestion mailing list >>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>>> for more information about digestion, see >>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Digestion mailing list >>>>> >>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>>> >>>>> for more information about digestion, see >>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *** >>>> Dr. A.D. Karve >>>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) >>>> >>>> *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:16 +0400 >>>> From: Jean-Luc Sallustro >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestate as fertilizer. >>>> Message-ID: <1309877116.2371.43.camel@laptop-jls> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" >>>> >>>> Dear Anand, >>>> >>>> I shall stress on the fact that we, in Mauritius and elsewhere in >>>> Africa, are fighting against this abusive use of chemical fertilizers. >>>> This battle is at a point that one of our subsidiary is totally devoted >>>> to a project which aims at producing organo-mineral fertilizer providing >>>> that we are supplied with compost and digestats issuing from several >>>> composting and biodigester plants we are builidng (treatment of poultry >>>> waste, sugar factory waste and ethanol distillery effluents, hostels >>>> organic waste ...) Then I totally agree with your assessment regarding >>>> the fact there is no inescapable need for chemical fertilizer. >>>> Now, my question was on the use of raw sugar not on the soundness of a >>>> biofertilization strategy. Once again I would like to stress on the fact >>>> that "sugar fertilization" seems to be a very interesting alternative >>>> to CMS for example. >>>> Let me rise again the point related to the comparison you make between >>>> sugar (as a low level polymerised carbonaceous compound) and cellulosis >>>> and hemicellulosis. For my understanding the very question is here to >>>> define what we call "organic matter", not in absolute terms of calorific >>>> value but through an ecological point of view then taking into account >>>> the complex interaction of microbial strains, macro decomposers, >>>> chemical role of water as a solvant, chemical role of clay as a substrat >>>> for H+ ions exchanges etc ... We all know a bit about NPK export from >>>> soils solutions to plants but it seems to me that we are not enough >>>> aware about organic matter, and worst about biomass in soils. As an >>>> example I have raised the fact that sugar will feed a particular class >>>> of microbes (and maybe other macro biotypes) and that will maybe imply >>>> that a lot of other bacterial strains will disappear or be weakened >>>> (celullosis decompostion ones). Do you have some observation to share on >>>> this point ? >>>> Best regards >>>> jean-luc >>>> >>>> >>>> Le mardi 05 juillet 2011 ? 11:02 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>>>> on dry weight basis, green leaves have the same nutritional calorific >>>>> value as sugar. Therefore, when farmers apply green manure to crops, >>>>> they are also feeding the soil microbes. It is recommended by many >>>>> sugar factories in India to grow a green manure crop between the rows >>>>> of sugarcane, at the time of planting sugarcane, and then to plough >>>>> the green manure into the soil at two month stage of the crop. >>>>> Analysis of soils before and after this operation showed an almost >>>>> doubling of N,P and K in the soil. This increase in NPK did not come >>>>> directly from the green matter incorporated into the soil but through >>>>> the microbes, which multipled their numbers when they fed on the green >>>>> matter and took up minerals directly from the soil. We acknowledge the >>>>> fact that the top 10 to 15 cm layer of soil in a field is very >>>>> fertile, but we do not call it humus, because the organic content in >>>>> our soils is always very low. The fertility of this layer is >>>>> contributed by the fact that leaves, animal dung, and other organic >>>>> residues fall on top of the soil, where they are decomposed by aerobic >>>>> micro-organisms. As I stated above, the microbes multiply their >>>>> numbers when provided with any source of organic carbon. In the >>>>> process of multiplication, they take up the minerals directly from the >>>>> capillary water in the soil. Soil contains an infinite variety of >>>>> microbes, and those which are best adapted to that particular soil >>>>> condition multiply. If the soil is phosphate deficient, the phosphate >>>>> solubilizing bacteria would multiply. If the soil were nitrogen >>>>> deficient, the N-fixing microbes would be better able to survive than >>>>> the non-fixing ones, and if the soil were saline, the halophytic >>>>> microbes would have the upper hand over others. It is plain "survival >>>>> of the fittest". After the microbes have exhausted the food, they die >>>>> of starvation and release the organo-mineral compounds into the soil, >>>>> increasing thereby the soil fertility. The organo-mineral complexes, >>>>> such as proteins, enzymes and co-enzymes are soluble in water and they >>>>> can be readily taken up by plants. The plants don't care from which >>>>> category of microbes they get their minerals. There is no need to >>>>> apply chemical fertilizers to the soil. And there is also no need to >>>>> apply any special kinds of bacterial cultures to the soil. >>>>> Yours >>>>> A.D.Karve >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Dear Anand, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am really interested by this vision of sugar nutrient cycle. >>>>>> Let me say first that even if I am from Europe, (you are right on this >>>>>> point) my group is in Mauritius, and then involved with sugar cane >>>>> agronomy >>>>>> (or other Poacae) >>>>>> Sure that cellulose is a kind of sugar ... but strongly polymerized, >>>>> at a >>>>>> point that the only bacterial strain enabling its degradation is >>>>> aerobic and >>>>>> particularly thermophilic. >>>>>> Soils macro decomposers such as colemboles or worms alternatively or >>>>>> complementary play a role within this decomposition stage of cellulose >>>>> and >>>>>> hemicellulosis. >>>>>> What seems to me of utmost interest in your assessment is that sugar >>>>> (I >>>>>> assume you are considering raw sugar ?) provides for direct >>>>> enhancement of >>>>>> soil fertility (when bring with organic N) for the reason that this >>>>>> immediately available energy positively stresses bacterial flora (but >>>>> which >>>>>> strains in particular ?) and then allows the production of mineral >>>>> nutrients >>>>>> to reach the plants depending on export demands (Poacae are C4 type >>>>> and >>>>>> therefore strongly dependant from photocycles and water availability). >>>>>> The way different +/- polymerized sugars reach the soil is a well >>>>> known >>>>>> thing, but what's about humus role (even as thin it seems ... there is >>>>>> always an upper layer of biomass on the 0 to 15 cm depth of soils), >>>>> and what >>>>>> is happening as an interaction between microbial activity in this >>>>> superior >>>>>> soil level, sugar solution (rain fed context) and other N linked >>>>> bacterial >>>>>> strains ? >>>>>> My hypothesis was that there is a risk of demobilisation of these >>>>> endemic >>>>>> bacterial strains, maybe one can put the question like this "when >>>>> stopping >>>>>> "sugar feeding" what will happen with organic N, P and K availability >>>>> ?" >>>>>> All the best >>>>>> Jean-Luc >>>>>> >>>>>> Le lundi 04 juillet 2011 ? 12:11 +0800, Anand Karve a ?crit : >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jean-Luc, >>>>>> feeding sugar to the soil microbes is done by the plants themselves. >>>>>> The water of guttation of sorghum and safflower contains sugar. All >>>>>> the plants that are infested by aphids also drop sugar on the ground >>>>>> below their canopy. The leaves that fall on the ground also contain a >>>>>> type of sugar (cellulose), In the case of many trees, one finds a >>>>>> carpet of fruits underneath their canopy. The fruits contain sugars. >>>>>> Chickpea (Cicer arietinum) leaves exude organic acids, which too fall >>>>>> on the ground to feed the soil microbes. In India, in the region where >>>>>> I live, literally thousands of farmers have taken up the practice of >>>>>> applying sugar to the field. For every hectare,they use a mixture of >>>>>> 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cattle dung and 25 litres cattle urine. It is >>>>>> applied once every three months. In an earlier experiment, I got the >>>>>> soil from a non-irrigated and non-fertilized field analysed >>>>>> consecutively for 5 years and found that in spite of growing crops on >>>>>> this soil, there was no change in the soil composition over this >>>>>> period. In India, the agricultural yield is positively correlated with >>>>>> the rainfall and not with any other factors like the sale of >>>>>> fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, etc. Humus is a typical topic >>>>>> raised by European agricultural scientists. Nobody talks of it in >>>>>> India, most probably because our soils do not have the humus layer >>>>>> that European soils have. >>>>>> Yours >>>>>> A.D.Karve >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jean-Luc Sallustro >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> Dear A D Karve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For my understanding microbes have an important role in the soil at a >>>>>>> stage >>>>>>> where endemic proto nutrient are made available for them within the >>>>> humic >>>>>>> clay complex. >>>>>>> This deep stage of macro nutrient (organic NPK) evolution can be >>>>> depleted >>>>>>> for many reasons such as K sustainable sequestration, unavailability >>>>> of >>>>>>> macro nutrient, not enough water percolation (soil solubility) etc. >>>>>>> Don't you think that one of the risks of depletion in N chain can be >>>>> the >>>>>>> demobilization of upper soil decomposers due to the fact that >>>>> immedialty >>>>>>> avalible nutrient are provided (sugar) >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> J-L Sallustro >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Digestion mailing list >>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>>>> for more information about digestion, see >>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Digestion mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>>>> >>>>>> for more information about digestion, see >>>>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>>>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>>>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110705/06873915/attachment-0001.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Digestion mailing list >>>> >>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>> >>>> for more information about digestion, see >>>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5 >>>> **************************************** >>>> >>> >>> >>> Melvin S. Finstein, Ph.D. >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Rutgers University >>> >>> 105 Carmel Road >>> Wheeling, WV 26003 >>> 304.242.0341 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Digestion mailing list >>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> [email protected] >>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> >>> for more information about digestion, see >>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *** >> Dr. A.D. Karve >> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) >> >> *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Digestion mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more information about digestion, see >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > -- *** Dr. A.D. Karve President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * _______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
