On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 14:45:37 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
On Friday, 26 December 2014 at 01:11:42 UTC, Manu via
Digitalmars-d wrote:
Many bug reports and case studies, and often, a persistent
voice for
minority issues that don't get enough attention. My time spent
arguing
in this forum is substantial, and as annoying as it may seem,
I think
if I didn't invest that time, there are things in the past 5-6
years
that would have moved in a different direction, and the
language would
be less attractive to me and my industry as a result.
Yes, I am doing pretty much the same. Does that mean I should
be more friendly to your lobby of your industry/projects if it
directly harms my interests? I have been supporting your push
for better low-level control because it helps me too, not
because I am kind person. Wasting effort of core contributors
on a toolchain I will never use is against my interests and
makes me naturally hostile about it.
No, I'm not a compiler dev, and I feel like you're trying to
discredit
me because I'm not.
It is exactly what I am trying to do and I am not hiding it.
I don't want to be a compiler dev. I want to *use* D to make
my life
and work easier for my numerous existing projects and
commercial
activity.
I wish I could do the same - I have never wanted to read
compiler sources or be part of Phobos dev team. But I do
recognize it is the only pragmatical way to make things work as
per my needs and it is better to act according to how things
are, not how things should have been.
No other language community has ever demanded I contribute to
the
compiler to be eligible to have my case considered relevant.
It is not about relevance but about priority. If you are
willing to wait for something like 10 years it will surely be
addressed at some point. But you demand it being addressed
soon, right?
And yes, D is probably least staffed language development
project among non-hobby projects.
If I contributed code to DMD, I know it will become my life,
and that
means I'm stepping away from my existing interests and areas of
development. I'm not interested in doing that.
Then you will have to wait until someone appears who have same
interests as you but IS willing to start contributing.
Surely you can understand that my desire to *use* D as a tool
is not
at odds with my desire to continue to work in the fields that
I prefer
to work in?
I am simply telling that D is not ready to be used in your
industry if you are adamant about such desire. Sad but true.
And by complaining you don't improve situation as a whole but
simply force redistribution of already existing set of limited
resources.
I keep asking you simple question you avoid answering - who
personally
should work to address your concerns? Those are all legit
concerns and I
doubt anyone would willingly prefer to keep things as they
are. But who will
do it if apparently you are the person who needs it most and
you don't want
to do it?
Any of the existing dev's that particularly care about the
long-term
success of the language and the health of the ecosystem?
Perhaps new dev's will be attracted by making the ecosystem
inclusive
of their work and development practice. That tends to be the
way open
source works no?
No, not really. Open source is about people working to fulfill
their own personal goals and not minding to share resulting
code if it doesn't mean much added effort. Only few care about
things like long-term success and only tiny minority will be
interested in working on ecosystem they don't use.
Motivation you speak about has its place but it is more of a
"luxury" contribution that only happens after primary concerns
are dealt with. It just happens that if some open-source
project is big and mature enough there is a very high chance
that your problems are already addressed by someone else. That
gives a wrong impression to those who mostly use open-source
and rarely contribute.
I'm glad you work on the compiler, the community needs people
like you
more than anyone...
I don't really work on compiler, sorry :)
although I'm not sure about your attitude. Right
now, I'm finding it quite corrosive.
Being all kind and nice is not really in my skill set. I hope I
have explained better my dislike for this specific set of
complaints despite the fact I usually tend to support your
cause.
This is probably the most disgusting, selfish and deluded posts
i've read on this entire newsgroup.
If D is supposed to supplant C/C++, then the needs of those users
*must* be met, especially without deriding those very users. Just
because you work on the D ecosystem does not give you 'carte
blanche' to tell a user to stop making enquiries into features
that are promised by D.
The user is the entire goal of D! Forgetting this relegates D to
obscurity and makes you look like an ass.
No, not really. Open source is about people working to fulfill
their own personal goals and not minding to share resulting
code if it doesn't mean much added effort. Only few care about
things like long-term success and only tiny minority will be
interested in working on ecosystem they don't use.
With that paragraph, you've just dumped on Walter, Andrei's and
all other open source contributor's efforts for the past n years!
