"Manu" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... > > What would you propose I try to convince me that VS is shit and > unproductive? >
You're twisting my words around. That's not what I said. > If you're going to talk about bloated heavy-weight IDE's, have you every > tried using Eclipse? What a joke! How is it that so many years of OSS dev > and Google backing it can produce such a bloated, crap, slow, > inconsistent, > unfocused/unintegrated tool?! Honestly, I always found all of the VS.NETs after 2003 to be just as bloated as Eclipse. Although given a choice, I admit I'd still use it over Eclipse since I find Eclipse painfully Java-centric when using it for non-JVM languages. > How about XCode? I don't understand how anyone gets any work done with > XCode, it is just soooo crap. > I had some brief experience with...shoot, I forget what it was called, but it was the immediate predecessor to XCode, the one in 10.2. I think it was something generic-sounding like "Project Builder" or something. It got the job done, but yea, I was never a fan of it. > > Overrated? I don't think calling industry standards overrated is a > reasonable claim. they're industry standards because everyone uses them... > and everyone uses them because they are industry standards. > I've used C/C++ professionally my whole career with some C# taking over > for > tools recently. I hate C++! (that's why I'm here!).. I don't hype it up > like it's awesome, but I use it because it's industry standard, there is > no > viable alternative, and even if there were, it would NEED integration with > all my tools before I could use it professionally in a full production > environment. > So...you agree that it's widespread...and you hate it...Ok, I give up: Exactly how is that *not* "overrated"? > If by 'better' languages, you mean D, then I completely disagree. D > *NEEDS* > an IDE, just like all the rest... and in my opinion, even more so... here > are some reasons I find it so annoying there isn't a quality VS > integration > for D (yet): > ** auto is used liberally in D... I should be able to hover over any > variable and have a tool tip inform me what it actually is (this makes it > more important that D has an IDE than even C/C++) > ** I don't have years of experience with the libraries, I SHOULD be able > to press '.' and have a list of everything the library can do appear > instantly without wasting my time trawling through the docs. > * I shouldn't have to guess or try and remember the name of some member > or method... I should be able to type the first 1-2 letters, and have the > rest of the word will appear instantly. > * If I don't know what a type is, or want to know about it in more > detail, I should be able to press F1 and see documentation about the > class/function/whatever instantly. > * I'm new to the syntax, and it's terribly nice when a little red > underline appears beneath a syntax error I've just created. > * As projects grow, things like auto-refactor save sooo much time. > Extremely difficult to implement reliably for C/C++, but should work > perfectly in D... > I like all those features too. But I've learned that I like responsive editors and great langauges even *more*. Like I said, if you're familiar with both sides and still prefer big IDE's, fine. That's just personal taste, I've got no problems with that. But I tend to get the impression that there are a lot of "professionals" out there who would completely and immediately shun a language based *purely* on a lack of full integration with VS. Actually, I think you're one of the people who have pretty much told me exactly that, that there are many such professionals who would do that. > C# for instance, is becoming very popular. The reason for this is that > it's > just sooooo fucking productive, and that's not thanks to the language its > self... any C# user will agree that at least 50% of C#'s special power is > actually it's VS integration. > The first time I used C# (knowing absolutely nothing about the language), > I > opened VS, and started typing... thanks to the integration, the language > was self-documenting and self-evident. I felt immediately productive in a > language I hadn't even read a word about, and after a little more > experience, I love its efficiency for writing the kind of code it's great > at, and I always feel amazingly productive. The experience is not limited, > or even thanks to the language, it's the whole package. > There was a time when I considered D and C# to be tied as my favorite languages (And yes, I was using VS.NET for all my C# work). Eventually, I became more and more frustrated by trying to work around C#'s limitations (Try making a basic, let alone realistically useful, set of generic functional tools! Without at least an IArithmetic, it's not realistically possible. Or do a simple reinterpret cast without diving into dark corners of the API.) It wasn't long before using C# felt like a full-time exercise in fighting the damn compiler. But at the same time, D just kept feeling more and more natural - even without a fancy IDE. So, based on personal experience, I tend to call "bullshit" on the idea that C#/VS.NET is highly productive for anything except GUI apps that only need the very basic UI controls and don't do a lot under the hood. And ok, maybe it's highly productive compared to C++, but that sure as hell isn't saying much. Honest to god, I'm *more* productive with D and Programmer's Notepad 2 than I ever was with C#/VS.NET. And much happier too (at least when I'm actually coding, anyway ;)) But I never would have discovered that if I had been an IDE-snob. Obviously you're not one, as you pointed out you've at least tried things the other way, too. But from what you describe, it appears that a lot of people in the industry *are* staunch IDE-snobs. > That said, If D doesn't have an IDE, or more specifically, VS integration, > it's off the table. Period. In a multi-user project, where all users > expect > VS integration, I can't do without it. > If it can manage to make a splash with newcomers like C# does, people will > be really impressed, and they'll keep coming back. > FWIW, I have always agreed that it's good for D to have good IDE integration because, like you've been saying, there are people who prefer it. And heck, once in a while I find it useful too, so I fire it up...wait a while...do what I need to do...slowly..., and then go back to my usual setup.
