Hi, > Am 22.05.2021 um 11:41 schrieb أسامة مخزوم <[email protected]>: > > Well, you seem to be on my side but in anthoer corner
:) The question will be which corner finds the best adoption by the broader community of C++ programmers. What they really need or are missing. Because we need adopters. > When we are talking about Gnustep outside objc view, developers has one main > benefit: gnustep libraries that provide portable and rich libraries as a > framework. as a programmer i like it but try to avoid objective-c and > objective-c++ even more. gnustep ui are pretty cool to port wxWidgets or even > tk into its backend. but why not to make this STEP more stright and provide > some wrapper/binding to c++? So anyone can later do whatever he want using a > c++ syntax without getting messed in objective-c++ every project. Hm. Maybe we should clarify the corners first. My proposal is to use the wxWidgets API in C++. Implementing the wxWidgets API can likely be done in objc++ - not much different from Cocoa. The result should be some libwxgnustep... This means that C++ programmers can simply link agains this wxWidgets wrappers by using plain C++. They don't see objc++. Only those developers who develop wxWidgets wrapping for GNUstep have to care about. To give an example, a hello world: https://docs.wxwidgets.org/3.0/overview_helloworld.html A C++ programmer obviously (I have never written code in wxWidgets, but it is obvious what is going on) uses C++ classes like wxApp, wxFrame, wxMenu and functions like wxMessageBox() or SetStatusText(). These are provided by the wxWidget libs. A GNUstep wxWidgets wrapper would of course be written in objc++, but compiled only once into the wrapper library. It would translate these classes and function calls into ObjC-messages for GNUstep GUI and Base. For example I imagine that wxMessageBox() could open some NSPanel or the wxMenu method AppendSeparator() would translate into [menu addItem:[NSMenu separatorItem]]. The result would be that programmers can write in pure C++ for wxWidgets, link to the GNUstep wrapper and system and run the Apps on some GNUstep based desktop. This would be my corner of thinking :) Or do you generally think about something else? > > Objc++ is something evil when it comes to syntax and code readabilty: two > languages, many restricts to merge, and a strange convention . theorically > you can anything possible using this latter, but its too ugly to people to > handle it. Fully agree. It should only be used to write Wrappers in either direction, e.g. making ObjC frameworks available to C++ programmers and making C++ libraries available to ObjC programmers. > That's why i would like to go further and make gnustep accesible outside > using objective-c++ from the application-developers and other programmer Yes, wxWidgets provide pure C++ classes to programmers and hide objc++. So maybe we are not even in different corners? And the key question is what C++ developers really want to see if GNUstep is wrapped. It is a little difficult to find them here on this list, but maybe some reader is "living in both worlds" and can comment. BR and thanks, Nikolaus > > On Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:15 PM H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi Usama and all, > any thoughts on my suggestions? > > BR, > Nikolaus > > > Am 11.05.2021 um 14:24 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>>: > > > > > >> Am 11.05.2021 um 13:48 schrieb Usama makhzoum <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>>: > >> > >> > >> On 5/10/21 11:20 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>>> Am 10.05.2021 um 20:58 schrieb أسامة مخزوم <[email protected] > >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>: > >>>> > >>>> hi all > >>>> > >>>> I am thinking of a C++11 wrapper for base, gui and other libraries, may > >>>> be it is easier to do than another PL (because of objective-c++ > >>>> existence). however, i want to hear from you: I would like to have > >>>> opinions and whether if there was a attemp to do this (with c++98, for > >>>> example). > >>>> > >>>> This also can give gnustep (another step). macosX developers always > >>>> searches for c++ wrappers around cocoa and friends. before they enforced > >>>> deeply to objc and swift, they simply wishing the last wish "I hope that > >>>> someone did it". so maybe a c++ wrapper can make gnutep famous for the > >>>> mac development, rather. > >>> On macOS C++ is not the primary language (except for kernel drivers). It > >>> is ObjC and Swift. > >>> > >>> IMHO, objc++ exists because there are some interesting C++ based > >>> libraries (e.g. data processing, business logic, file format decoders) > >>> where it should be possible to integrate them into objc based GUI apps. > >>> So in MVC architecture, C++ would be mainly used for providing an > >>> existing data model. > >> > >> this could be also a reason for writing such a wrapper. > > > > I do not understand how it would help. If the GUI is to be written in ObjC > > and some C++ libs to be included, wrapping ObjC transforms the whole > > project into a C++ project which is not what I would like to have. > > > >> why doing things in two language becomes the standard way? think of it as > >> you were using python and have to do GUI staff with Qt, does i have to try > >> py-c++ or to use a wrapper like pyqt? > > > > Well, if I use ObjC and want to do some macOS or Linux or Windows GUI > > stuff. Then I simply use GNUstep withou any wrappers. > > > >> > >> > >> GNUSTEP framework is a very easy-and-popular framework, i like it both > >> with developing, and in use. and I think it will make another little > >> advance if there was some easy/neat way to use from c++ (and many other > >> programming languages, like perl, and even javascript), i assume some > >> progress when a c++ programmer (thinks in terms of templates, > >> mutli-inheritance and smartpointers) has access to GNUSTEP. I know that i > >> didn't invent something new or make things impossible as possible. I want > >> to help people that like c++-syntax to consider gnustep as an option, > >> after all. > > > > Ok! > > > > Now, I could imagine something like a https://www.wxwidgets.org > > <https://www.wxwidgets.org/> glue so that you can compile any wxWidgets > > based application not only for macOS, Linux (GTK, Qt, X11 etc.) or Windows > > but also for GNUstep. So make GNUstep another "backend" option for > > wxWidgets in the list of supported platforms: > > > > https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/ <https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/> > > (i.e. create some wxGNUstep) > > > >> > >>> > >>> I wonder what a use case of the reverse wrapping would be. > >> > >> a syntax-sugar, or convince wrapper is the main goal. maybe used as > >> additional gui-frontend for a c++ graphical or command line application > >> without too much diving into obj-c++. > > > > There may be a key decision before starting a project like you are thinking > > of: which classes and interfaces should your wrapper provide? Something > > completely new (optimized for wrapping GNUstep) or a well known set of > > interfaces already used by many C++ projects. > > > > Beware: there are already many: > > > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/babfl5/a_pretty_big_list_of_c_gui_libraries/ > > > > <https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/babfl5/a_pretty_big_list_of_c_gui_libraries/> > > > > So wxWidget seems to me one of the preferred choices - but I am not that > > active in C++ that I know what others are doing. > > > > What I therefor suggest is to check if it is sufficient to make a special > > compiler setup to compile wxOSX/Cocoaas as C++ wrapper around GNUstep. So > > it may even almost exist but nobody did have the idea to make use of it. > > And it may be a much more manageable task than inventing a new wrapper and > > make people use it. > > > > Now I see a nice benefit of such a project: get any source package from > > github (e.g. KiCAD) that uses wxWidgets, compile it with wxGNUstep and get > > a harmonized look and feel inside a GNUstep desktop... > > > > >
