Hi Damianos,
Damianos Sidiropoulos wrote:
I'm sorry if any of this has caused any ill feelings. That was not my
intention.
I started with that particular premise because that is what the lead
developer of the project communicated with me.
No ill feelings. Not on my part at least. But you know the feeling od
something which has been discussed over and over and never comes out the
same again?
The GNUstep web site also communicates this message on one of the pages
https://wwwmain.gnustep.org/information/aboutGNUstep.html
I know... however on the same page it specifies the destkop and
application stuff. It is confusing and I think, here, a specific term
for the "Core" could help being clearer. Perhaps we should say. We,
GNUstep, are a project and produce "GNUSTEP" as "Core" or other name
like Stairway. Also we give you tools, apps.. but we are not a... xx,
yy, zz. It would be clearer.
I had full hands with maintaining the site, but had not the feeling to
write this, since it should be discussed. The feeling of "don't know how
to touch it" without displeasing somebody.
Also the domain continues to irk me :)
I have seen some of the misconceptions that both Greg and that web
page seem to be fighting out in the wild
I also helped him review the recent STF grant application and there
was never any mention of a desktop anywhere in there. It was pitched
as a framework touting usage by 3rd party commercial developers
to make popular apps.
That's fine.. I think STF will be mostly interested in the "Technology",
that is the frameworks. But who knows... maybe a Libre Laptop with a
GNU/Linux with GNUstep could be.
Even the page (which I had to find via search engine) which provided a
link to download GWorkspace didn't actually provide an app. It is a
link to the source code and users are expected to compile it.
https://gnustep.github.io/experience/GWorkspace.html
Well it provides an App in the form of source coed and not a binary.
There is no easy way to distribute an "app" on 5 different operating
systems and who knows how many architectures and distributions. It is
not macOS on Apple silicon only. Classic opensource: wget, tar xzf
configure, make install :)
Between all that and the lack of any desktop ISO for users to download
and install, I had no reason to believe that GNUstep was anything
other than an app/platform building framework
This is another "sore point", at the end it is best to provide source
tarballs and git repositories: for developers and advanced users.
all others should be able to do "apt-get install gworkspace.app" or
"pkg_add gworkspace" or equivalent. (you can actually do that on Debian,
NetBSD and more).
We could provide binary repositories... but thin what average Joe wants
to do, just install the easiest way.
This was just the premise I was given. The slides were just my way of
gathering my thoughts on how the current state of the web site is not
consistent with that premise.
I am of course happy to go with whatever messaging the project decides on.
The premise was not wrong, only partial.
I still think you are right that we give a lot of mixed messages or have
difficulty communicating because overloaded terms, missing website
sections, etc etc.
E.g.
- should we define a term, word, group of words to define our
"framework" part? You evidence that need. It would help in rewriting so
many stuff less ambiguous
- should that term have a dedicated logo?
- should we define desktop projects are somehow endorsed, affiliated..
if they can have say "GNUstep" in a correct way or they might
misrepresent us
- ditto above for distributions
- more and better organized developer documentation. I think we all
agree on the gap, just different ideas on what and how to doù
Also, I think for "unresolved issues", like desktop, distribution and
similar we should agree on what to say on the website.
It's a multi-headed hydra.. I hope I did not demoralize you.
Of course it is easier to say "we are X" and do only this and that.
Easier to market :)
Riccardo
