On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 09:47:05PM -0500, Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit : > > > > >One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes > >you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of > >research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also, > >the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc. > >If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm > >surprised you don't recommend this yourself. > > This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people > who need help. The initial contact may not have enough information > and we usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is > asking too much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to > posting. Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be > berating these people and making them feel like our help list is not > really helpful.
Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction would be given with the initial reply. > > > > > >This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees > >or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy > >users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because > >one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the > >contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic > >motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time > >wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. > > How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to > respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are > altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your > "entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not > owe you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good > candidate for a help list. Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list. > > > > >This may have little to do with installation instructions but it > >addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all* > >users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the > >right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have > >nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I > >remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions. > >I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a > >few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that. > > So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off > this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that > people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help. > Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a > person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping > and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and > patronising help list. First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I suggested. Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly. > > > > >As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant > >mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other > >lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support > >lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to > >turn their computer on. > > Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a > service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who > need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people, > then they should not be on the help list. You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got that last part backwards. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer" -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
