Sorry, Janet, if you thought I was name calling!  I was only saying
that the work so far has been largely fun and a learning experience -
so fear not that CC might have "wasted" resources on TOT.

But I am merely a humble student of the law, so your comments below
about big picture ideas are beyond my area of expertise.  They sound
great and will, I hope, be very useful to the others here who are
better suited than I to "think big."

All the best,
Dana

On 2/28/07, Janet Hawtin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2/28/07, Dana Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > What other ways can we support the commons and explore options for free 
> > > culture.
>
> > If you are asking whether I could have better spent my time doing
> > other projects besides TOT, well maybe.  I suspect I could have done
> > lots of things.  Maybe CC would have hired someone else to do it.  But
> > they didn't have to pay me much, and I learned quite a bit.  I doubt I
> > would have done something that you would have cared much about had I
> > not.  At the very least I'm glad TOT has begun to peek ever so slowly
> > into the thoughts of non-lawyers.
>
> Why does this always come down to name calling. It is not about sissies.
> It is not about me not caring about CC and its potential and actual function.
>
> Commons and free culture are important concepts and words at this
> point in time not just for me but for all of us.
>
> As far as I can see it is about parallax between the names and ideas
> which groups use to attract communities and funds, and then the
> organisational structures and functional practices which they actually
> engage in.
>
> I am probably clumsy about my understanding of 304c and 304d
> I feel I am not clumsy about my care to use the word commons in
> contexts where it means people can participate, and to think about
> free culture as an idea which is important to foster and engineer for
> regardless of the current state of play of law which does not care
> much about either concept.
>
> If these two organisations choose to use a 501 model of attracting
> funds but then find themselves unable to look outside of existing law
> or to experiment with ways to engineer and campaign for commons and
> free culture then that is a great shame.
>
> I have been interested in creating and authoring in a way which
> generates value but does not achieve value through restricting access.
> I have been working on a card game and matrix to help show people
> about these ideas. I have come to both groups looking for discussions
> and ideas which are about generating value while honoring commons and
> free culture and am disappointed to find that the letter of the
> existing copyright law is the primary beacon and is more scrupulously
> attended than the ideas of commons or free culture which are more
> loosely handled.
>
> These two groups hold valuable conceptual positions.
> This is because the copyright law is not supportive of commons and free 
> culture.
> The community recognises and supports the value of these concepts
> which start from a different perspective than that which generates
> copyright law. There is value in sharing and participation; it is
> enabling. Copyright is about generating value through control, commons
> and free culture are about generating value from participation and
> collaboration. The value of commons and free culture as a position and
> organisation is directly related to people's ability to connect the
> concept with actions which support the core idea. If the groups use
> existing law as the guiding light in preference to supporting the
> commons or free culture where those choices arise, then there is much
> which is not being discussed, tried, tested.
>
> If all the ideas generated by these groups look only at value via
> restriction of access then the momentum of people's interest in
> commons and free culture
> cannot even work towards new models.
>
> My question is not about caring about one person's choice pf project
> which will certainly be something which will be worth knowing inside
> out in a few years, it is about thinking beyond the model which is
> generating a lack of participation and access, and looking to develop
> case studies and discussions around ways that people use commons to
> generate value, and use free culture as the first principle on which
> to build.
>
> Start with a small project, anything, that looks at ways people
> generate value in a shared context perhaps do practical experiments
> with a range of models or survey the groups that use those models
> already to see how value is generated and sharing is implemented.
> Populate the websites and wikis with people's exploration of a2k based
> economics. If that is out of scope for Creative Commons and Free
> Culture groups, then fine, my question was and is how can we look at
> other models. Which groups are having a go.
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>
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