On 11/29/11 4:44 AM, Deano Calver wrote:
I haven't been active in the OI/illumos community recently, as the
infighting has made it not a nice place to be, however I will make a small
comment (Tho I still use OI in a production server and have for over a year,
but honestly I'm not sure I would choose Illumos based now.)
EVERBODY grow up, you're not toddlers!
How the packaging system can be seen as a major stumbling block is beyond
me, it is nothing, It is like arguing over VIM versus Emacs!
The fact that there are strong opinions here makes me believe it is
worthwhile to have different choices. I hope that the passion for the
technology translates into contributing to the projects. It's easy to
have opinions, it's better to back them up.
The community is too small to support multiple majorly separate
distribution, OI, SmartOS, illumian is 2 too many (and I've missed a few).
Right now we need one good general distribution, with several 'heads' that
when/if we gain the number of community supporters may diverge into
different distributions. At the moment the community doesn't have enough
working members (especially free volunteers which are the heart of any real
open source OS).
If people really want the ecosystem to thrive, then some compromise has to
happen. I'd suggest solving the package issue once and for all, so we can
laugh about how much prose was spent on it in the future.
1) Choose an interim solution that is clearly marked as temporary. This
whole one system or another being 'toxic' is bullshit, it's a package system
ffs Just until a system is ready to replace it, we need something.
There are people who think very strongly about packaging. Actually i
like both ips and debian and am glad it is not svr4.
2) The people most passionate about packaging on all side, form a small
closed working group to design a new or modification to an existing system
anywhere in the open source world, that when built will become the defacto
illlumos base.
Yes we need working groups.
3) Implement that system and move over to it as the base packaging
system for illumos based OS (ironically the obvious name of IPS<Illumos
Packaging System> wouldn't be a good choice I'd imagine ;) )
We believe that debian packaging is the more open, translatable choice.
That was part of the reason wanted to donate our work on it to the
community. Since our community is small we need to make choices which
may help to grow it.
Right now, what the Illumos ecosystem need, is not infighting but a clear
easy to understand system. The challenge is not IPS versus Deb versus SRV4
but why use illumos based over Linux. Right now Linux wins pretty much hands
down, the technical advantages Illumos based OS have simply don't out vote
the chaos that almost any outsider sees.
Let's build a working group around this topic and see where we can
bridge the gaps. Let's try to create some innovation to bring the
outsiders in..
It is impossible though to decrease the chaos in an open community.
Everyone has and should have an equal opinion. A good way to drive
change and get some useful work done is to break off into working groups.
Sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees, whilst IPS versus SVR4
may seem really important, its not, its just a tree.
Ubuntu has now overtaken the other linux distro's and i am told that the
primary reason is the ease of use. Maybe there should be a usability
working group too??
My 2p,
Deano
From: Garrett D'Amore [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 29 November 2011 03:12
To:<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [discuss] illumian
On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Michael Widmann wrote:
Hi
Well spoken everyone - one is missing that doesn't declare himself and
should please said some thing on this : Garret ..
I thought I sent mail on this topic at length already. I will resend it
since it appears it didn't go through the list. That will be a separate
message. Meantime, I'll answer the questions below best as I can.
1.) Garret in front of the curtain please
2.) Would it be frank to ask - could we donate for OpenIndiana? and if so
where - and what do donate?
You can donate to the PFIF which serves the entire illumos community. Right
now we don't have a way to earmark funds just for OpenIndiana. And I still
have to obtain the precise details for donating to the PFIF using the
illumos "project" for accounting purposes.
OpenIndiana had chosen right from the beginning to stand apart from the rest
of illumos. IMO, looking back, this was not such a great decision.
Ultimately, I think the goal of not having a "preferred" distro was noble,
but really it turns out not to be so useful. Everyone understands what OI
is, and it has become something of a "reference" for the rest of illumos.
Ultimately, I'd like illumian to also stand in that role, together with OI.
I think we need such references in order that we can reasonably validate
test results, etc. A common baseline is important for development. I don't
think any of the other distributions are suitable as a baseline here, either
because they are niche, or deviate too far from the illumos core to be
useful as such.
3.) Question: Is there a real problem with the name - or only this IPS /
SRV4 Package hating generation conflict?
The name was not a key motivator. IPS is toxic to us in every respect
except one -- that the package delivery is fully described by parseable
metadata rather than scripts (ignoring the oft-used SMF backdoor.) So it
seemed to me that we could use the upstream for OI, including that metadata,
to build a distribution using .deb format binaries.
For the record, I also I think there is some great community value in this
because there are many companies delivering software via .deb, but as far as
I know IPS is adopted only by Oracle -- and indeed they seem to use a
version that is ever-changing. So I don't think IPS is viable as an ISV
solution -- and I doubt Oracle genuinely wants this as their model seems to
move away from supporting ISVs but rather to "owning" the entire contents of
the system with software that is produced exclusively by Oracle.
4.) UserLand discussions are slightly boring (IMHO) - cause the OpenSolaris
/ OpenIndiana Userland I'm personally used too not really interested in
debian UserLand or anything else...
I tend to agree. for us the main thing was that there is a lot of effort put
behind OI, and it seems silly to reproduce all that effort in a competitive
effort.
5.) What really matters: ZFS / DTrace / KVM / Zones / Crossbow - could we
all work together to make a progress their - and maybe starting to innovate
with an "open board"
ZFS has a working group. It isn't as open as you might like, but that's by
design - however anyone you think should probably be on this working group
already is, or has an invitation to participate. What we haven't done is
extend membership to folks who are not innovating in the ZFS code itself,
because we want to avoid bikesheds and keep the discussions fairly focused
on technical points. There's a minimum barrier to entry -- however if you
think someone should be on it, send me an email and I'll share it with the
board if I agree that the person appears to meet the minimum technical
qualifications to participate. (You could also send to another ZFS WG
member-- Matt Ahrens basically runs the working group.)
6.) Every Distro has it's beautiful side - could we hammer out (for people
not knowing one of this either) which one is best for what case? (making a
list together where each is aimed to be installed / used)
There are not many functional distros for illumos:
OI - the main one used by most people (server& desktop), follows in
OpenSolaris' footsteps
illumian (still in birthing throes)
Nexenta Core Platform -- well not really, since that is OpenSolaris based,
and has no future at present (Nexenta's efforts are focused on illumian at
present)
NexentaStor -- commercial, and storage focused -- includes some proprietary
closed code
StormOS -- NCP derived, very immature at this point
SchilliX ? -- I'm not sure this is properly illumos based, as Joerg seems to
be taking a different direction
SmartOS -- Joyent's cloud/v12n/kvm distro.
Of all these, OI is the only rational alternative for most folks at this
point. I hope illumian would be a sister distro to OI, and quickly reach
the same level of stability and functionality.
7.) Let the community vote for the userland and the winner should help the
others to integrate .... (if it is illumnos / debian userland - please help
OI to integrate)
This is the reason distros exist -- to differentiate. I do not propose that
the community should consolidate to one distro -- it hasn't worked for
Linux, and I doubt it would be a good thing for illumos. Diversity breeds
innovation.
8.) thanks to everyone who does a great job - on the core / the distribution
/ the integration of new things (nexenta - illumnos / alasdair -
openindiana / joyent team - kvm / dtrace and tons of updates and fixes)
Thanks.
- Garrett
Michael
2011/11/28 Alexander<[email protected]>
Well said. Just let's work together, I do not understand why the name of the
distribution can be an obstacle. I do not see any threat to OI, moreover, I
think working together on the integration of new packages and the use of one
illumos-userland will helps everyone. Let's just work, as Bryan said.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:43 AM, Bryan Cantrill<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Michael Widmann
<[email protected]> wrote:
Any comments on this joyents and nextentas?
First, Joyent, Delphix, Nexenta and every other member of the illumos
community contributes to illumos -- to the core operating system -- which in
turn benefits everyone (OpenIndiana included). So we have in fact helped
OpenIndiana (most significantly with our KVM port to illumos, which
OpenIndiana included in its oi_151a release) -- and we will continue to do
so.
That said, I think it's important that we as a community recognize that what
binds us is core OS technologies (ZFS, Zones, Crossbow, DTrace, KVM, etc.),
and not how those technologies are packaged and distributed. A central
aspect of the failing of OpenSolaris (in my opinion) was that we
collectively (and Sun in particular) insisted on there being only One True
Path for the entire system. At its best, this ethos manifested itself as
endless discussions on governance and voting and constitutions -- and at its
worse led to arguments, discord, politicking and fracture.
But with illumos, we have a rebirth: we have not only fresh blood in terms
of technologists, but also (I would like to think) more tolerance around
those elements that are ancillary to those core technologies. As such,
several distributions have flowered that would have not been possible in the
shadow of OpenSolaris -- and I expect more to come. This is _healthy_ as it
means that more people (not fewer) will be exposed to our core values as new
distributions arise to fill new niches. As a community moving forward, we
need to stay focussed on the values that bind us -- and that means leading
with the technology, not pre-announcements or rhetoric or endless
discussion. To that end, I would point to the illumos hackathon as a
shining example of what we can and should be doing: similarly minded people
coming together to advance the state of the art in operating systems!
With that, I would like to ask that we cease the friendly fire and get back
to work. Speaking personally, I am going to be spending the afternoon
finishing up the ::scalehrtime dcmd that we found so invaluable on a nasty
KVM problem this past week (patch to come on that one), and adding some code
to the panic path that would make a similar problem slightly easier to debug
-- work that I believe to be examples (if extraordinarily small ones) of the
values that bind our community...
- Bryan
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