+1 from me too 2011/11/29 Hernan Saltiel <[email protected]>
> > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Linda Kateley <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> All of this discussion makes me know more than ever that we need a >> governing board. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. In order to make >> decisions a board should be elected by the community and for the community. >> From the governing board, we should be able to add working groups/projects. >> >> All in favor of nominating and electing a governing board? >> > > +1 > > >> >> lk >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/29/11 4:18 AM, DavidHalko wrote: >> >>> Hi Michael W, >>> >>> I appreciate your kind and sensible words. >>> >>> You left some numbered questions& comments. I hoped to share a bit. >>> >>> >>> Another distribution? See below >>> >>> (3) Another Name? No... Brand it OI for short. OI is GREAT. >>> >>> (7) Vote on a userland? Democracy is 2 wolves& a sheep voting on >>> dinner. I don't know if that is the right thing to do. >>> >>> Am I the only one who sees what has happened over the past 25 years >>> between Solaris& GNU& Linux? >>> >>> >>> (4) userland rant coming, take out your knives and guns! >>> >>> GNU userland is basically Linux, because GNU never finished a real >>> kernel, and Linux never had a real UserLand. It was 2 half successful >>> projects merged together, a marriage of convenience but never a true union. >>> >> The founders of nexenta believed and still believe that we should make >> the core platform features easier to use for linux users. That was why they >> added to debian userland in the first place to their distro. I think it is >> a good idea for this to continue. There is every indication that stormos >> will continue to do this. >> >> >>> SVR4 userland was only ever partially implemented in Solaris, two >>> successful products, each killing off each others most successful features >>> over time. >>> >>> I think there just needs to be an effort to make SVR4 userland what it >>> used to be in other defunct SVRx worlds - easy to use: text, X, and then >>> extended to HTTP interface. GNU can come along for the ride! >>> >>> I still can't believe that FMLI was killed when other SVR4 systems were >>> able to do all system admin work, including: user admin, group admin, >>> printer admin, packaging, network configuration, os upgrade, running user >>> applications, and provide extensibility for data centers to build their own >>> menu based automations. SVRx leveraged the same FMLI language to deliver >>> everything over X (XFMLI) with no code changes. It should have been wrapped >>> in HTML/JavaScript instead of killed (and not replaced with something >>> functionally equivalent.) >>> >>> As soon as Sun had something good, they killed it for a worse user >>> experience. Sunview was nice and fast - it made them a market leader with >>> easy administration. DisplayPostscript brought desktop publishing, then >>> went the way of the dinosaur. OpenWindows was slower, but not ad slow ad >>> what was to come. FMLI arrived, could build menuing interfaces for user and >>> admin communities. OpenStep was beautiful, but never delivered. Motif was a >>> pig when CDE wad introduced. The admintool became more crippled. At least >>> CDE came with windowing sh for building GUI/scripting interfaces, even >>> though xfmli was never ported. Gnome was bigger/slower yet with virtually >>> no simple way to administer/customize it. FMLI and windowing shells got >>> killed with nothing to replace them. User communities, what were they? Once >>> again, more difficult to manage at every step, rip out what worked well, >>> and leave nothing to replace it. >>> >> You are absolutely correct. >> >>> >>> Workstations were a breeze to set up. Pull a box off the loading dock, >>> copy down the MAC, copy it into a config file, roll the workstation onto a >>> desk, boot it up. Zones and workstations should have been the same >>> abstraction instead of killing diskless workstations and later killing >>> sparse zones. The workstation handling made Sun market leader, then they >>> stopped advancing state-of-the-art and killed it. >>> >>> Svr4 packaging was awesome. Packages were quick to build via a script. >>> could be verified, packages already installed could be verified in case of >>> tampering, it could be network based with nfs, even worked with zones >>> automatically (made my life easier with a dozen zones per host machine!) >>> Packages could be made architecture an os aware (my packages worked across >>> SPARC Solaris and Intel non-Solaris OS's seamlessly, no need to have >>> multiple packages.) Was it perfect? No, but could have been extended via >>> http with little effort, buy it was killed. >>> >>> What about sar? It was awesome. Someone decided to make the "-u" options >>> basically useless recently by making a column show bogus data. I used to >>> pop graphs out in a one-liner using xterm with tek emulation with sag. Oh, >>> someone decided to kill fast out of the box performance graphing and not >>> replace it. That was ok because "sar -u" gave a bogus column anyway, right? >>> >>> If we are going to get another distribution, how about one based upon >>> Illumos that works on SPARC III, IIIi, IV, IV+ out of the box? If not, >>> don't bother. >>> >>> If we are getting another distribution, how about one that works in >>> 128mb and can be used with embedded systems with standard text menus over a >>> terminal over X console via ssh? Throw in a light and easily customizable >>> window manager like OLVWM? How about make vnc work out of the box with the >>> start of a service? We want a tight distribution to do things with. If not, >>> don't bother making another distribution. >>> >>> Some claim they want a server OS? Do it right. Make the TK SNMP MIB >>> browser shipped with the OS actually work (what a concept) and monitor >>> local& remote systems, use RMON& DISMAN for all NET-SNMP alerts and data >>> gathering, use SNMP TrapD to syslog out-of-the-box for system health, >>> snmp-to-dtrace interface, sar-to-snmp interface, zpool-to-snmp interface, >>> etc.) Make a real server OS with managability light years ahead using >>> incremental improvement instead of making a Linux look-alike (which feels >>> 10 years older with missing features, that are being killed off of >>> Solaris.) Don't claim to want to be a server OS without decent SNMP, if >>> DTrace is really that good, gateway it, and make sure the TK based X MIB >>> browser can graph it all - otherwise, don't bother with another server >>> distribution. >>> >>> If we want a real user workstation distribution, give an option like >>> olvwm so hundreds of users can easily be administered centrally and >>> hundreds of users can painlessly be running virtual desktops on a single >>> socket. Make network boots that look like sparse zones. Provide talk, wall, >>> email, nntp news, smtp, finger, ruptime on the servers and remote >>> workstations (that should boot off the server and look just like a zone.) >>> Throw in blogs& wiki for fun. Ensure there are X and Http interfaces for >>> everything. Other WM's should install through package management and work >>> without configuration. Web browser should auto-update. PDF and Flash should >>> auto-update. Add a multi-platform IM tool. If not, don't bother with >>> another desktop distribution. >>> >>> If a feature was fast& easy to use, it was killed. I am tired of seeing >>> people kill a good thing, reinventing the wheel, just to give the community >>> less, a little slower, but looking more modern. >>> >>> >>> If we want really modern user interface, resurrect Looking Glass. How >>> about OpenStep, to draw some Apple programmers working on top of Darwin? >>> One of the OpenMotif libraries, for compatibility? How about adding >>> OpenLook back in there, for a fast/clean window manager? I know, Unicode is >>> a problem, but not in the Open Source world - deploy what we have, let the >>> community choose, give the community time to fix it. >>> >>> Invest time into OpenIndiana and put back some of the old dead stuff >>> that made SVR4 userland superior to GNU userland... Then take standard SVR4 >>> userland stuff and extend it, that code is static and we have no fear of >>> merging it back. Keep the GNU userland that comes from Solaris, let Oracle >>> upgrade it. If the don't release the code, we have options, but actively >>> developed code that overlaps with Solaris should be the last things we >>> touch. >>> >> Yes, but we need the community to drive and create these changes. >> >>> >>> There are several high priority places to target: >>> - SPARC, for disaffected development users and cheap equipment which >>> will be rolling out of data centers, as new equipment is rolled in, OI has >>> an opportunity to make a foothold into these datacenters, as long as old >>> equipment is there and we retain compatibility. >>> - User Friendly Administration, to bring in those new users. Linux did >>> it with a vastly less friendly system from original SunView or SVR3/4 >>> (olwm, cde, fmli/xfmli.) >>> - User Friendly GUI, to make it easy to use& customize, not fancy, >>> consider old hardware off eBay, must do basics out-of-the-box like an >>> Apple, as easy to maintain as an Apple. Without Jobs, this arena should be >>> targeted, this is the future. If it can not be managed easily, it should be >>> an add-on, not default. Users should be able to adjust their monitor >>> settings, right? (I do some of that with vnc terminal servers and scripts, >>> today.) >>> >>> - Embedded and appliance, gotta be easier to manage out of the box than >>> other systems (snmp, telnet, ssh. X, http)... Build every interface as an >>> abstraction so no work must be duplicated. This is our bread-and-butter >>> now. This pays the bills. We should be BETTER than EVERYONE in appliances >>> if we want to survive. OI should become the choice OS for embedded >>> appliances. >>> - Cloud, this is medium future. Joyent is doing awesome. Desktop >>> virtualization should be done like no one is doing today, to make a splash >>> in the trade rags. What about booting OI off a cloud and resurrecting >>> cachefs, make the desktop look like a zone? Leverage free services to host >>> pieces? Use a USB stick to make a dataless workstation? Checksums with zfs >>> should make an awesome back end store with very little front end effort. >>> Zfs compression should make an awesome mechanism to compress data between >>> the client& the cloud. OI should become the choice OS for clouds and >>> virtualized desktops, based on our history. >>> - Virtualization, host other architectures in zones, don't have to do it >>> fast, just do it. Intel, SPARC, ARM, POWER. Base it on KVM. A zone should >>> be able to host any architecture OI instance on any platform. Software >>> should work everywhere, speed should be the only variable. Old Sun,& Mac's >>> should be our friends. Old linksys should be our target. Someday, ARM will >>> be in the cloud, OI should be their first choice - let then develop in a >>> zone, then let them run Intel in a zone. >>> >>> - clustered file system, this Is killing Solaris. I needed one for >>> years. At the very least, we need some kind of file replication. Will >>> Lustre ever be available for OI? Will our changes be too much to make it >>> incompatible when it arrives? >>> >>> We have to build on what we have done well (we have the chance to be the >>> new SVRx), stop scrapping stuff which works (give ISV's another place to >>> make their goods available, before the port to Solaris 11 is done), stop >>> replacing with less functional new stuff, stop making new distributions, >>> stop renaming stuff (no one knew what Sun sold because they renamed it >>> every year) - we have to move forward from where we are. Fujitsu should be >>> building SPARC clusters on OI and not Linux!!!!! >>> >>> I lived this back in the 1980's in another real-time community, when I >>> did some assembly kernel work, this is giving me a nightmare just thinking >>> about it. >>> >>> This is not rocket science, much of it can be done in awk or a cron job. >>> Most of it can be directed and libraried to different higher level >>> contributors (not kernel coders.) I am willing to help. >>> >>> I hope this gives people a better feel for where some of us come from. >>> We just want our 25 year old scripts, books with notes, subroutine >>> libraries, and home-made tools to work. We want more features - not just >>> rip& [almost] replace approximately every 6 years. >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> http://netmgt.blogspot.com/ >>> PS the (5) "Crown Jewels" of Solaris are of little value when we don't >>> see the benefits through standard management interfaces (SNMP for zfs, >>> DTrace, zones, crossbow, netfilter, etc.) and standard user interfaces >>> (syslog viewer, TK snmp grapher, TK snmp walker, user programmable Alerts >>> from syslog, users in a zone "talking" to another zone, etc.) OI should be >>> able to be configured through SNMP as well as configure others OI systems >>> through SNMP. A true Internet Cloud OS as well as Desktop. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> I can't believe you sent this long email from your phone... amazing! >> >>> >>> On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:16 AM, Michael >>> Widmann<michael.widmann@gmail.**com<[email protected]>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>>> >>>> Well spoken everyone - one is missing that doesn't declare himself and >>>> should please said some thing on this : Garret .... >>>> >>>> 1.) Garret in front of the curtain please >>>> >>>> 2.) Would it be frank to ask - could we donate for OpenIndiana? and if >>>> so where - and what do donate? >>>> >>>> 3.) Question: Is there a real problem with the name - or only this IPS >>>> / SRV4 Package hating generation conflict? >>>> >>>> 4.) UserLand discussions are slightly boring (IMHO) - cause the >>>> OpenSolaris / OpenIndiana Userland I'm personally used too not really >>>> interested in debian UserLand or anything else... >>>> >>>> 5.) What really matters: ZFS / DTrace / KVM / Zones / Crossbow - >>>> could we all work together to make a progress their - and maybe starting >>>> to innovate with an "open board" >>>> >>>> 6.) Every Distro has it's beautiful side - could we hammer out (for >>>> people not knowing one of this either) which one is best for what case? >>>> (making a list together where each is aimed to be installed / used) >>>> >>>> 7.) Let the community vote for the userland and the winner should help >>>> the others to integrate .... (if it is illumnos / debian userland - please >>>> help OI to integrate) >>>> >>>> 8.) thanks to everyone who does a great job - on the core / the >>>> distribution / the integration of new things (nexenta - illumnos / >>>> alasdair - openindiana / joyent team - kvm / dtrace and tons of updates >>>> and fixes) >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> 2011/11/28 >>>> Alexander<alexander.r.eremin@**gmail.com<[email protected]> >>>> > >>>> Well said. Just let's work together, I do not understand why the name >>>> of the distribution can be an obstacle. I do not see any threat to OI, >>>> moreover, I think working together on the integration of new packages and >>>> the use of one illumos-userland will helps everyone. Let's just work, as >>>> Bryan said. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:43 AM, Bryan >>>> Cantrill<bryancantrill@gmail.**com<[email protected]>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Michael Widmann< >>>>> michael.widmann@gmail.**com <[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> Any comments on this joyents and nextentas? >>>>> >>>>> First, Joyent, Delphix, Nexenta and every other member of the illumos >>>>> community contributes to illumos -- to the core operating system -- which >>>>> in turn benefits everyone (OpenIndiana included). So we have in fact >>>>> helped OpenIndiana (most significantly with our KVM port to illumos, which >>>>> OpenIndiana included in its oi_151a release) -- and we will continue to do >>>>> so. >>>>> >>>>> That said, I think it's important that we as a community recognize >>>>> that what binds us is core OS technologies (ZFS, Zones, Crossbow, DTrace, >>>>> KVM, etc.), and not how those technologies are packaged and distributed. >>>>> A >>>>> central aspect of the failing of OpenSolaris (in my opinion) was that we >>>>> collectively (and Sun in particular) insisted on there being only One True >>>>> Path for the entire system. At its best, this ethos manifested itself as >>>>> endless discussions on governance and voting and constitutions -- and at >>>>> its worse led to arguments, discord, politicking and fracture. >>>>> >>>>> But with illumos, we have a rebirth: we have not only fresh blood in >>>>> terms of technologists, but also (I would like to think) more tolerance >>>>> around those elements that are ancillary to those core technologies. As >>>>> such, several distributions have flowered that would have not been >>>>> possible >>>>> in the shadow of OpenSolaris -- and I expect more to come. This is >>>>> _healthy_ as it means that more people (not fewer) will be exposed to our >>>>> core values as new distributions arise to fill new niches. As a community >>>>> moving forward, we need to stay focussed on the values that bind us -- and >>>>> that means leading with the technology, not pre-announcements or rhetoric >>>>> or endless discussion. To that end, I would point to the illumos >>>>> hackathon >>>>> as a shining example of what we can and should be doing: similarly minded >>>>> people coming together to advance the state of the art in operating >>>>> systems! >>>>> >>>>> With that, I would like to ask that we cease the friendly fire and get >>>>> back to work. Speaking personally, I am going to be spending the >>>>> afternoon >>>>> finishing up the ::scalehrtime dcmd that we found so invaluable on a nasty >>>>> KVM problem this past week (patch to come on that one), and adding some >>>>> code to the panic path that would make a similar problem slightly easier >>>>> to >>>>> debug -- work that I believe to be examples (if extraordinarily small >>>>> ones) >>>>> of the values that bind our community... >>>>> >>>>> - Bryan >>>>> >>>>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>>>> >>>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> bayoda.com - Professional Online Backup Solutions for Small and Medium >>>> Sized Companies >>>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------- >>> illumos-discuss >>> Archives: >>> https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/182180/=now<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now> >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/rss/182180/** >>> 21175644-0c0ef58a<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175644-0c0ef58a> >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/**member/?&;<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Linda Kateley >> Global Evangelist and Community Manager >> (mobile) 612-807-6349 >> (email) [email protected] >> (skype) lkateley >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------**------------- >> illumos-discuss >> Archives: >> https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/182180/=now<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/rss/182180/** >> 21175563-a31db35a<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175563-a31db35a> >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/**member/?&id_** >> secret=21175563-0bb30ad8 <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > > -- > HeCSa > *illumos-discuss* | > Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175862-1c3587f1> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- bayoda.com - Professional Online Backup Solutions for Small and Medium Sized Companies ------------------------------------------- illumos-discuss Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175430-2e6923be Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21175430&id_secret=21175430-6a77cda4 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
