I’ve been working with a professor who likes excel (+xlstat extension) for students learning to do statistical analysis because it allows them a quick feedback loop from their data to visualizing a result. It allows students to try different regressions etc, and see the differences, where command line stats packages separates that knowledge. In other words, could Excel be a good a sandbox for learning, and the question would become when and how to transition the students toward methods taught in SC/DC.
I’d be interested to hear the groups’ thoughts on that. -Phil > On May 5, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Bert Overduin <[email protected]> wrote: > > I couldn't have said it better, Alistair! > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:59 PM, GRANT Alistair <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi, > > >>It sounds like they were shunted into an R course they didn't care about. > > If you read the comment, I don’t think this was the case, I think the > major point here is that the session (instructor/helper or material) gave > off an impression that they were an idiot for using Excel - This is not > conducive to a good learning environment - no matter an instructors > viewpoint they have to ensure students can learn. This is the impression I > have been getting from this whole thread of conversation - “If you don’t > do it a way I consider to be good or completely change how you work to > that way, you are an idiot” - especially in the use of evocative words > like “terrifies”. People have to exist in the real world and in many > places sudden change just isn’t possible so making small changes to move > towards a more efficient or “better” path is all they can do. > > >>We should all take responsibility for the way we market our courses. If > >>someone is perfectly happy with Excel, then I might wonder what they're > >>doing in academia, but I wouldn't push them to do an R course. > > > I think that this statement is utterly out of order - one) the quote prior > to this never claimed to be perfectly happy and two) who are any of us to > judge who should or shouldn’t be in academia - you don’t know what they > are using it for, what their background is or anything to contribute to > saying whether anyone should be academia. > > My understanding of SWC was that is was about improving things, and > teaching about process and concept with grounding in tools such as Git, > etc, but lately it appears in some cases that the Git part is becoming > more important that the version control - there are many version control > systems with advantages and disadvantages - just getting someone to > realise the usefulness of any of these is good and getting them to start > is even better. There appears to be an undercurrent of “fundamentalism” > forming which reads as do it my way as your way is just wrong. > > I am reminded of what I teach students about software development: > If you the developer make business decisions about your client’s business, > then you are doing something wrong. > People have to make their own choices and change their own ways of > working, at these courses, we can show people what may be a new approach, > but if we denigrate their prior knowledge or call them idiots then we lose > any willingness to work with us and they will close down receptiveness. > > Regards, > Alistair > ----------------------------------------------- > Alistair Grant > EPCC > Rm 2403 > 0131-650-5028 > ----------------------------------------------- > > > Thought to be thought about: > Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, > because your character is what you really are, > while your reputation is merely what others think you are. (John Wooden) > > > > > > > > > On 05/05/2016 12:24, "Timothy Rice" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > >> It isn't productive if they think they're being patronised then go > >> on the defensive, get irritated or switch off altogether. As an > >> example, an attendee at a SWC workshop in September 2014 commented: > >> > >> >I never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have > >> >clawed my way into a decent working knowledge of it over the last > >> >almost two decades. I am very proud of what I can do with it, and > >> >I have found it of great use, but I know there is a ton I don't > >> >know, so I was looking forward to that session. However, that > >> >session ended up being bitterly offensive. The basic message being > >> >conveyed was "you are an idiot for using Excel to do anything > >> >expect to put data into R, and an even worse idiot if you do > >> >things to make data comprehensible to a human." There were snide > >> >cartoons, there was condescension... It was infuriating. ... > >> >By the end I was livid, tired, and very stressed. > > > > > > > >More awareness around the shortcomings of Excel can be advocated as a way > >to attract people into R courses, but if they only find out about it after > >they sign up then you've falsely advertised what you're teaching. > > > >You can't force someone to take training wheels off, it just terrifies and > >confuses them. You can only show them videos of people doing stunts > >without > >training wheels, and help them find their balance and pick them up and > >give > >them a hug when they fall -- after they agree to take off their own > >training wheels. > > > >~ Tim > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Discuss mailing list > >[email protected] > ><mailto:[email protected]> > >http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.softwar > ><http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.softwar> > >e-carpentry.org <http://e-carpentry.org/> > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org > > <http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org> > > > -- > Bert Overduin, PhD > TRAINING AND OUTREACH BIOINFORMATICIAN > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > orcid.org/0000-0002-5281-8838 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5281-8838> > > EDINBURGH GENOMICS > The University of Edinburgh > Ashworth Laboratories > The King's Buildings > Charlotte Auerbach Road > Edinburgh EH9 3FL > Scotland, United Kingdom > > tel. +44(0)1316507403 > http://genomics.ed.ac.uk <http://genomics.ed.ac.uk/>The University of > Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org
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