I've not used xlstat. I do use Excel frequently for quick and dirty things, and I understand it's limitations, and where it does things better than R/RStudio. [1] I'm also one of the local R champions/gurus.
Most of my research colleagues use Excel as that has been the easiest way for them to get at the results they want. It isn't big or clever to disrespect them or their competence. What we should be doing is demonstrating ways to go beyond what they can do, or to do it with more robustness, or to do it faster and repeatable, or usually a combination of all three. That doesn't mean putting Excel down. There are enough Gotcha's with R (students missing missing data and calculating across factors instead of numerical values for example, on a parallel with Excel's date handling train wreck). We don't need to mock or put folk down. We just show them what we do, and explain why we do it, and help them learn how to do it that way. There is a learning curve and students will require some incentive to get over the 'activation energy' and into a new way of working. Typically we enforce that at undergrad level by requiring they use R for reports and submit source code with it. This forces them to climb the cliff (as it were), and then realise how quick it is to perform exploratory analyses or plots once your data is in correctly. If you want to compare Excel/R (for example) then maybe there should be a set of exercises that demonstrate the difference. E.g. A data frame of three continuous variables x,y,z Plot X against Y then put a ring around the top 10 values by z We can get along without inflammatory zealotry. There are folk who have built robust and reproducible piplelines with Word and Excel. What we are teaching isn't so much software as a way of thinking. [1] Adds fuel to the fire.. there are some but there aren't many. Dr David Martin Lecturer in Bioinformatics College of Life Sciences University of Dundee ________________________________ From: Discuss <[email protected]> on behalf of Philip Rosenfield <[email protected]> Sent: 05 May 2016 13:53 To: Bert Overduin Cc: [email protected]; Dirk Eddelbuettel Subject: Re: [Discuss] Word and PowerPoint "all wrong"? I’ve been working with a professor who likes excel (+xlstat extension) for students learning to do statistical analysis because it allows them a quick feedback loop from their data to visualizing a result. It allows students to try different regressions etc, and see the differences, where command line stats packages separates that knowledge. In other words, could Excel be a good a sandbox for learning, and the question would become when and how to transition the students toward methods taught in SC/DC. I’d be interested to hear the groups’ thoughts on that. -Phil On May 5, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Bert Overduin <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I couldn't have said it better, Alistair! On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:59 PM, GRANT Alistair <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi, >>It sounds like they were shunted into an R course they didn't care about. If you read the comment, I don’t think this was the case, I think the major point here is that the session (instructor/helper or material) gave off an impression that they were an idiot for using Excel - This is not conducive to a good learning environment - no matter an instructors viewpoint they have to ensure students can learn. This is the impression I have been getting from this whole thread of conversation - “If you don’t do it a way I consider to be good or completely change how you work to that way, you are an idiot” - especially in the use of evocative words like “terrifies”. People have to exist in the real world and in many places sudden change just isn’t possible so making small changes to move towards a more efficient or “better” path is all they can do. >>We should all take responsibility for the way we market our courses. If >>someone is perfectly happy with Excel, then I might wonder what they're >>doing in academia, but I wouldn't push them to do an R course. I think that this statement is utterly out of order - one) the quote prior to this never claimed to be perfectly happy and two) who are any of us to judge who should or shouldn’t be in academia - you don’t know what they are using it for, what their background is or anything to contribute to saying whether anyone should be academia. My understanding of SWC was that is was about improving things, and teaching about process and concept with grounding in tools such as Git, etc, but lately it appears in some cases that the Git part is becoming more important that the version control - there are many version control systems with advantages and disadvantages - just getting someone to realise the usefulness of any of these is good and getting them to start is even better. There appears to be an undercurrent of “fundamentalism” forming which reads as do it my way as your way is just wrong. I am reminded of what I teach students about software development: If you the developer make business decisions about your client’s business, then you are doing something wrong. People have to make their own choices and change their own ways of working, at these courses, we can show people what may be a new approach, but if we denigrate their prior knowledge or call them idiots then we lose any willingness to work with us and they will close down receptiveness. Regards, Alistair ----------------------------------------------- Alistair Grant EPCC Rm 2403 0131-650-5028 ----------------------------------------------- Thought to be thought about: Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. (John Wooden) On 05/05/2016 12:24, "Timothy Rice" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> It isn't productive if they think they're being patronised then go >> on the defensive, get irritated or switch off altogether. As an >> example, an attendee at a SWC workshop in September 2014 commented: >> >> >I never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have >> >clawed my way into a decent working knowledge of it over the last >> >almost two decades. I am very proud of what I can do with it, and >> >I have found it of great use, but I know there is a ton I don't >> >know, so I was looking forward to that session. However, that >> >session ended up being bitterly offensive. The basic message being >> >conveyed was "you are an idiot for using Excel to do anything >> >expect to put data into R, and an even worse idiot if you do >> >things to make data comprehensible to a human." There were snide >> >cartoons, there was condescension... It was infuriating. ... >> >By the end I was livid, tired, and very stressed. > > > >More awareness around the shortcomings of Excel can be advocated as a way >to attract people into R courses, but if they only find out about it after >they sign up then you've falsely advertised what you're teaching. > >You can't force someone to take training wheels off, it just terrifies and >confuses them. You can only show them videos of people doing stunts >without >training wheels, and help them find their balance and pick them up and >give >them a hug when they fall -- after they agree to take off their own >training wheels. > >~ Tim > >_______________________________________________ >Discuss mailing list >[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.softwar >e-carpentry.org<http://e-carpentry.org/> -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org -- Bert Overduin, PhD TRAINING AND OUTREACH BIOINFORMATICIAN [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> orcid.org/0000-0002-5281-8838<http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5281-8838> EDINBURGH GENOMICS The University of Edinburgh Ashworth Laboratories The King's Buildings Charlotte Auerbach Road Edinburgh EH9 3FL Scotland, United Kingdom tel. +44(0)1316507403 http://genomics.ed.ac.uk<http://genomics.ed.ac.uk/> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
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