Jonah and all, I've seen two presentations of the R workshop, both at Software Carpentry workshops. They were a couple of years apart. Neither finished the material in the SWC lesson. Both were quite different from each other. I doubt that if an attendee from one described the workshop to an attendee from the other that it would be recognizable. Further, I note that the R for Reproducible Scientific Analysis lesson may differ less from the Data Carpentry R lesson than it does from the R Inflammation lesson.
Perhaps one avenue of discussion might be to pare down from the current lesson(s) and define what constitutes the core concepts and competencies that any language lesson _must_ cover during its actual offering to be considered for inclusion in 'Software Carpentry'? That would then make _how_ those concepts and competencies open to lesson planners, maintainers, and to the judgement of the community. I think that might become increasingly important. While I understand that there is a strong desire to keep the discussion on this list focused on things that are truly and genuinely of general interest, I suggest that it might be premature to shunt what constitutes a legitimate lesson for SWC into an issue just yet. What makes a lesson legitimate seems to me to be of pretty central interest and importance, and I think that removing it from general and public discussion so early is not in the best interest of the community. I urge you to encourage at least a bit more discussion here, so that someone reading this later -- and possibly much later -- will be able to get a general enough sense of the range of opinions to properly judge whether to go to the issue or not. I am sure it is not your intention to stop discussion, but I think this issue is important enough to remain on the main list for at least a little while longer. I have had my say, and I will add anything further to the issue. I hope that in stating my opinions here I have not violated any community norms or offended anyone, and I apologize now if I have done so. That is not my intent. On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Jonah Duckles <jduck...@carpentries.org> wrote: > All, > > When we say we're teaching something called "Software Carpentry" it has > been the opinion of our Steering Committee for a long time that it should > be using consensus lessons. So if we offer a workshop in a new place we > want it to be comparable to a workshop run some other place. Our core > lessons (those 10 listed in the upper table of https://software-carpentry. > org/lessons/) are those that we allow you to pick from to compose > something we call "Software Carpentry" when bringing a workshop to a new > place. > > We accept that local self-organized workshops experiment and innovate from > this base. Belinda's guidance is to call your workshop "Inspired by..." or > "Based on..." is our recommendation when you go "off script". > > This is truly where we grow and innovate, so we don't want to stifle this > kind of exploration. At the same time, we want someone who says "I went to > a Software Carpentry!" talking to someone else who went to one to have a > comparable experience. > > In the context of the upcoming merger of Software Carpentry and Data > Carpentry I think the door is open to have the community discuss how this > should look in a world of growing lessons. How do we maintain some > commonality of experience AND allow instructors to compose the most > appropriate workshop for participants. I don't have a silver-bullet here, > but I'd welcome a discussion from the community. This is an area where we > don't want to overwhelm you with red-tape, but we do want to be opinionated > (in an editorial kind of way) as a community about what should and > shouldn't go into a workshop of a given branding. > > I've created a GitHub issue to further this part of the discussion: > https://github.com/carpentries/conversations/issues/16 > > Regards, > --- > Jonah Duckles > Software Carpentry, Executive Director > http://software-carpentry.org > > > From: C. Titus Brown <ctbr...@ucdavis.edu> <ctbr...@ucdavis.edu> > Reply: ti...@idyll.org <ti...@idyll.org> <ti...@idyll.org> > Date: October 23, 2017 at 8:45:47 AM > To: Belinda Weaver <bwea...@carpentries.org> <bwea...@carpentries.org> > Cc: discuss@lists.software-carpentry.org <discuss@lists.software- > carpentry.org> <discuss@lists.software-carpentry.org> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] using the DC ecology Python lesson in place of > the SWC Python for SWC workshop > > Hi Belinda, > > I'm confused. Is the DC R lesson not considered a programming language > lesson? I think it should do fine as a lesson in a SC workshop, and I > interpreted Azalee's post as agreeing with that: > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-October/005525. > htmlk > > Other than that, my understanding matches yours with respect to branding, > etc. > > Who is the final arbiter of this, in any case? Shouldn't it be Jonah or > someone on the SC Steering Committee, like Christina, who weighed in here: > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-October/005527. > html > > and said the same thing as Azalee. > > thanks, > --titus > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 11:18:00AM +1000, Belinda Weaver wrote: > > Hi everyone > > > > I just want to weigh in on this as I am responsible for starting this > > thread in the first place when I asked about teaching R in this post: > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/ > discuss/2017-October/005510.html > > > > While some people might like the DC R lesson better, I feel it is > important > > to teach the workshop we advertised, i.e. a Software Carpentry R workshop > > that will be using the R Gapminder lesson. > > > > If a workshop is branded Software Carpentry, then our expectation is that > > it will include the shell, version control and either R, Python or > MATLAB. > > If a workshop does not include those three elements, then it is not > really > > able to be branded Software Carpentry. > > > > It can be called 'Based on Software Carpentry", "Inspired by Software > > Carpentry" etc if it doesn't include those three elements, or if you are > > using extensive personal/local adaptations of our lessons, but a Software > > Carpentry workshop must teach shell, git and a programming language to be > > the real deal. > > > > I just wanted to clarify this in case people were not aware of it. > > > > regards > > Belinda > > > > Belinda Weaver > > Community Development Lead > > Software and Data Carpentry > > e: bwea...@carpentries.org | p: +61 408 841 882 | t: @cloudaus > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > Discuss@lists.software-carpentry.org > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss > > -- > C. Titus Brown, ctbr...@ucdavis.edu > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@lists.software-carpentry.org > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@lists.software-carpentry.org > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss >
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