Hi Bennet, Thanks for contributing to the discussion. I like your idea of core concepts/competencies -- as I've been thinking about the discussion on this list, that's something that's occurred to me as well.
Cheers, Christina On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Bennet Fauber <[email protected]> wrote: > Jonah and all, > > I've seen two presentations of the R workshop, both at Software Carpentry > workshops. They were a couple of years apart. Neither finished the > material in the SWC lesson. Both were quite different from each other. I > doubt that if an attendee from one described the workshop to an attendee > from the other that it would be recognizable. Further, I note that the R > for Reproducible Scientific Analysis lesson may differ less from the Data > Carpentry R lesson than it does from the R Inflammation lesson. > > Perhaps one avenue of discussion might be to pare down from the current > lesson(s) and define what constitutes the core concepts and competencies > that any language lesson _must_ cover during its actual offering to be > considered for inclusion in 'Software Carpentry'? That would then make > _how_ those concepts and competencies open to lesson planners, maintainers, > and to the judgement of the community. I think that might become > increasingly important. > > While I understand that there is a strong desire to keep the discussion on > this list focused on things that are truly and genuinely of general > interest, I suggest that it might be premature to shunt what constitutes a > legitimate lesson for SWC into an issue just yet. What makes a lesson > legitimate seems to me to be of pretty central interest and importance, and > I think that removing it from general and public discussion so early is not > in the best interest of the community. > > I urge you to encourage at least a bit more discussion here, so that > someone reading this later -- and possibly much later -- will be able to > get a general enough sense of the range of opinions to properly judge > whether to go to the issue or not. > > I am sure it is not your intention to stop discussion, but I think this > issue is important enough to remain on the main list for at least a little > while longer. I have had my say, and I will add anything further to the > issue. > > I hope that in stating my opinions here I have not violated any community > norms or offended anyone, and I apologize now if I have done so. That is > not my intent. > > > On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Jonah Duckles <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> All, >> >> When we say we're teaching something called "Software Carpentry" it has >> been the opinion of our Steering Committee for a long time that it should >> be using consensus lessons. So if we offer a workshop in a new place we >> want it to be comparable to a workshop run some other place. Our core >> lessons (those 10 listed in the upper table of >> https://software-carpentry.org/lessons/) are those that we allow you to >> pick from to compose something we call "Software Carpentry" when bringing a >> workshop to a new place. >> >> We accept that local self-organized workshops experiment and innovate >> from this base. Belinda's guidance is to call your workshop "Inspired >> by..." or "Based on..." is our recommendation when you go "off script". >> >> This is truly where we grow and innovate, so we don't want to stifle this >> kind of exploration. At the same time, we want someone who says "I went to >> a Software Carpentry!" talking to someone else who went to one to have a >> comparable experience. >> >> In the context of the upcoming merger of Software Carpentry and Data >> Carpentry I think the door is open to have the community discuss how this >> should look in a world of growing lessons. How do we maintain some >> commonality of experience AND allow instructors to compose the most >> appropriate workshop for participants. I don't have a silver-bullet here, >> but I'd welcome a discussion from the community. This is an area where we >> don't want to overwhelm you with red-tape, but we do want to be opinionated >> (in an editorial kind of way) as a community about what should and >> shouldn't go into a workshop of a given branding. >> >> I've created a GitHub issue to further this part of the discussion: >> https://github.com/carpentries/conversations/issues/16 >> >> Regards, >> --- >> Jonah Duckles >> Software Carpentry, Executive Director >> http://software-carpentry.org >> >> >> From: C. Titus Brown <[email protected]> <[email protected]> >> Reply: [email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> >> Date: October 23, 2017 at 8:45:47 AM >> To: Belinda Weaver <[email protected]> <[email protected]> >> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected] >> try.org> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Discuss] using the DC ecology Python lesson in place of >> the SWC Python for SWC workshop >> >> Hi Belinda, >> >> I'm confused. Is the DC R lesson not considered a programming language >> lesson? I think it should do fine as a lesson in a SC workshop, and I >> interpreted Azalee's post as agreeing with that: >> >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017- >> October/005525.htmlk >> >> Other than that, my understanding matches yours with respect to branding, >> etc. >> >> Who is the final arbiter of this, in any case? Shouldn't it be Jonah or >> someone on the SC Steering Committee, like Christina, who weighed in here: >> >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017- >> October/005527.html >> >> and said the same thing as Azalee. >> >> thanks, >> --titus >> >> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 11:18:00AM +1000, Belinda Weaver wrote: >> > Hi everyone >> > >> > I just want to weigh in on this as I am responsible for starting this >> > thread in the first place when I asked about teaching R in this post: >> > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017- >> October/005510.html >> > >> > While some people might like the DC R lesson better, I feel it is >> important >> > to teach the workshop we advertised, i.e. a Software Carpentry R >> workshop >> > that will be using the R Gapminder lesson. >> > >> > If a workshop is branded Software Carpentry, then our expectation is >> that >> > it will include the shell, version control and either R, Python or >> MATLAB. >> > If a workshop does not include those three elements, then it is not >> really >> > able to be branded Software Carpentry. >> > >> > It can be called 'Based on Software Carpentry", "Inspired by Software >> > Carpentry" etc if it doesn't include those three elements, or if you are >> > using extensive personal/local adaptations of our lessons, but a >> Software >> > Carpentry workshop must teach shell, git and a programming language to >> be >> > the real deal. >> > >> > I just wanted to clarify this in case people were not aware of it. >> > >> > regards >> > Belinda >> > >> > Belinda Weaver >> > Community Development Lead >> > Software and Data Carpentry >> > e: [email protected] | p: +61 408 841 882 <+61%20408%20841%20882> >> | t: @cloudaus >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Discuss mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss >> >> -- >> C. Titus Brown, [email protected] >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/listinfo/discuss > -- Christina Koch - Research Computing Facilitator, University of Wisconsin - Madison <http://www.wisc.edu/>, Center for High Throughput Computing <http://chtc.cs.wisc.edu/> Wisconsin Institute for Discovery <http://wid.wisc.edu/>; Advanced Computing Initiative <http://aci.wisc.edu/>; ACI-REF <https://aciref.org/> email: [email protected] // phone: (608) 316 - 4041 // calendar: tinyurl.com/ChristinaCHTC
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