Re: some further questions

[Travis Siegel]

I disagree.  I do not think a scripting language for voiceover is  
necessary.  Voice over is not jaws.  Let me repeat that.  Voice over  
is *NOT* jaws.  Since voice is part of the os, and not something  
running on top of the os, it doesn't work the same way Jaws does.   
Because of this, it's fundamental operating mode is different.  While  
it would be nice to have hot keys to read parts of the screen, or  
macros to do things, it's not necessary.  You have to keep in mind  
that voice over is part of the os.  This gives it a *lot* more power  
than something just built-on to make things talk.  There is no need  
for a voiceover only scripting language, because there are already  
several scripting options for the os itself.  By default, these  
languages work with voice over, because they control the os itself.   
Therefore, any scripts written for the os will automatically work  
with voiceover.  There is no equivalent on the windows platform,  
though I suppose some may try to argue that windows scriptiing is  
such an animal, though I can point to plenty of reasons why this is  
not so.  But because of the way voiceover is integrated into the os,  
having a separate scripting language would pointless, as it would  
simply duplicate what apple has already provided for controling  
applications anyway.  If you want to write voice over scripts, learn  
apple script, then script to your hearts content.  Anything you write  
will work just fine with voiceover, and with the apple applications  
as well.  You can't do that with windows.  Please try to keep in mind  
that the approach used here is not the same as the approach used  
elsewhere.  The closest you can get is a linux kernel patched with  
speakup, so that the os speaks from boot, since speakup is built-in  
to the kernel, it works at a much lower level than does any windows  
screen reader, and thus *every* terminal application is accessable,  
not just those that play nice with video output routines.  This is  
what apple has done, only on an even lower level.
I know comparisons to windows is unavoidable, and you're more than  
welcome to make them, but while doing so, try to remember how things  
work, and why voiceover is what it is.  Comparing voiceover and jaws  
is like comparing the electric grid to solar panels.  When you buy a  
mac, you're getting the grid, because your house is already wired to  
use it.  With windows, your house needs to have power added to it, so  
you install solar panels on your roof, then run wires down inside the  
house for plugging in your stuff.  Obviously having the house built  
from the start with electric already in it is a much better options,  
because you know your appliances are going to work, whereas with the  
solar panels, there's no guaraantee that new stove you got will play  
nice with your power output requirements, and it may not work.  And  
of course there's still the paralels with incompatabilities as well.   
Even with the electric grid connected to your house, you still can't  
run a gas appliance w/o adding something else to make it work, or an  
appliance requiring 240 volts instead of 110, you need to change  
something to make it work.  Macs are the same way.  For most things  
they work just fine, but sometimes you'll need additional help.  With  
windows, you can't even move in until the solar panels are  
installed.  Thereby adding to the expense and complexity of the system.
Sorry for going off like this, but it still irks me that folks just  
don't grasp the difference here.  $499, and you've got a completely  
up to date macintosh that will run all modern software, and the  
latest os version.  Try doing that with a pc/windows based machine  
with a screen reader on it.  I can't be done, and that's all there is  
to it.  The entry level is so much lower with a mac than a pc, I  
expect simple economics will drive more and more folks to the mac out  
of necessity, never mind the ease of use and lack of  
incompatabilities plaguing any pc based machine.On Dec 8, 2005, at  
2:31 PM, Joshua E. Loya wrote:

   I don't believe a scripting language has been implemented for  
Voice Over; however, I would hope that Apple has considered this.  
It's all fine and well to ask software developers to adhere to the  
Voice Over Guidelines that Apple has formulated, but what if we  
want to use versions of software that are not initially compatible  
with VO? That is the one thing that Jaws and Window Eyes have over  
Voice Over. Granted, Voice Over is still in its early stages, but  
something along these lines is going to need to happen in order for  
more blind people to want to make the switch to the Mac.

-Joshua


----- Original Message ----- From: "LARRY WANGER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac  
OS Xby theblind" <Discuss@macvisionaries.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: some further questions



Curious about something else.  Are there folks out there who write  
scripts for programs using VO as some do with Jaws.

By the way, related to question 4 of my last post, the two  
external drives are firewire so it should work from that  
perspective.  My concern is that while one is actually Mac based  
and I use MacDrive to access it, another is windows based but I'm  
assuming I can still plug this right in and it will read the FAT  
32 or NTFS format, can't remember which it is.


Check out my blog at http://lsw999.blogspot.com/

Larry Wanger
----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Hess"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac  
OS Xby theblind" <Discuss@macvisionaries.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: some further questions



Larry, Here are some of the answers to your questions.
1. I experienced some difficulty working in the Internet Browser,  
Safari. As you know, when you load a page you are then able to  
move around with the right and left arrows in combination with  
the control and option keys. When I moved to the html content and  
hit the command to interact with the HTML, I found I then had to  
move line by line with the arrow keys.  Is there a command that  
works to tell the Voice Over to just read the entire page without  
having to enter commands.  When reading a lot of text, having to  
hit a key for each line gets old and tough on the fingers.
Command-Option-a (I will referto these as voKeys) is supposed to  
read the page however I find that it seems to stop every now and  
then.  You can try pressing vokeys-semicolan to lock the vokeys  
and that will at least free up a hand from holding them down.
You might also try vokeys-shift-w to read the entire window.
2. Related to question #1, is there a command that will either  
allow you to skip past all links and go to the text on a web page  
or, is there a command to be able to skip a lot of links at  
once.  For example, in Windows with Jaws I can be on a web page  
and just hit page down to get past links or to move through a  
page faster.  Often I look at specific pages several times a day  
and know that if I hit page down twice I get to the text.  This  
is kind of important to me as hitting arrow keys to move link by  
link really stinks.
Larry, I love this command too and have  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] requesting this. At the present  
time the best choice is using the item chooser list which can be  
activated by pressing vo-i and typing the first few letters of  
what you are looking for. I have also found that going to last  
item by pressing vokeys-pagedown gets you closer to the meet of  
the page.

3. I'm going to check out the Apple site but can someone briefly  
contrast what is different between an iMac and a Mac Mini other  
than the obvious things like needing a keyboard and monitor if  
you use a mini?  How big is the normal hard disk in a Mac Mini,  
things like that?
I'll leave that to the pros on this list.  They will share some  
of the differences.

4. I have backed up data on two external hard disks.  These files  
consist of word documents, photographs belonging to my wife,  
music, stuff like that. I'm assuming that the drives which are PC  
compatible will just connect to the Mac and be readable?
Good question. I am going to suggest the possibility that if they  
are being connected via usb port they should be recognized by the  
Mac. Again, there are folks doing this who hopefully can give you  
a more detailed answer.

I'm all but ready to order up a Mac but had these few last  
questions!
Well Larry, I am glad that you have given it a serious look and  
also glad that you are making an informed decision.  Keep those  
questions coming. WE all want you to be happy with your Mac and  
know what you can and can't expect write out of the box.  Have a  
great day.
Sincerely:

JohnyTheHess & WillieTheWoof