Re: VO and web page access

Wed, 21 Dec 2005 04:08:56 -0800 

Larry and all,
To clarify a point here, The mac is now accessible with VO. Windows has been somewhat accessible with windows screen readers for some years now. Access on windows has not really improved for several years. Convenience has improved and perhaps braille functionality has improved but accessibility by and large has not improved. Accessibility is not defined by perception, it's defined by conception. If I can do something efficiently no matter what the method, that is accessibility. If something does something for me, that's convenience. At what point is much too much? The answer is when there is so much we can't hold it all in effective memory. With VO, we have few keystrokes compared to window eyes and jaws, but one we don't really need them although there is room for improvement and 2, I for one just cannot remember them all so is that access? Another thing to consider about access going back to the difference between convenience and access is, are we getting the real picture or a distorted picture. If I buy something and it is found that I am blind so they remove all the pictures from it say it's a hard copy book on biology, am I getting access? Same here. The windows screen readers do a lot of redistributing of content. One of the things I hear often from my screen user colleagues is that they cannot tell where I am in a document or app or on a web page till they or I fiddle with it. In some cases, They cannot follow me at all because the content has been so radically redistributed. Accessibility then is the ability to access the same information if possible as closely as possible to the way it is accessed by anyone else. I've been telling people in the windows world this for years. When someone develops a windows app or better yet, a windows os which provides this approach, we may have access equal to that which we have on the Mac. I'm not a dy hard Mac user but for the first time ever, I now have close to true access to an os. 

--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:18 AM, Larry Wanger wrote:

Hi Gabe,


To me at this point Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard.  I realize  
that a Mac is different but my eexpecttation is that I will enjoy the  
same level of access I felt I had with Jaws on the Mac.  Now, I know  
neither is perfect and am consideratte of all that has been said on  
this ttopic.  I'm just saying that I will truly feel comfortable with  
this when VO and the Mac exceeds what my access expeeriencce was on  
the PC.  I was not trying to compare one with the other in terms of  
PC and Mac.  And, just so you guys know, I really enjoy working on my  
Mac and spent he last hour promoting it to a group of people on a  
chat and people were very interested.  I know that the Mac and VO  
experience will continue to improve.  Gosh, you mac users are just  
too die hard!!!  PC's be damned!!!



On Dec 20, 2005, at 8:41 PM, BlindTech of BlindTechs.net wrote:


Lary:
You said:

"...a Mac is better.  However, like it or not, Jaws and Window Eyes  
are the

standard and benchmark for blind access to the computer.
"
ir....

Standard? in who's eyes (excuse the pun) in Access Worlds eyes? in  
Freedom
scientifics eyes? who says that jaws and window eyes is a standard?  
does

howl, or supernova fit that standard, or just jaws and window eyes?
BlindTech
Website:
http://blindtechs.net
Phone: (602) 488-9862

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----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac  
OS X by

the blind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: VO and web page access



"First though, jaws is out.  If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but
you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there.  There is a lot
you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
access goes."

Hi,


I appreciate that those of you using Mac by and large have a  
belief, and

rightfully so, that you are using a better computer than a Windows  
box.
However, you must understand that access to computer applications  
and the
web is just that, access.  Be it a Mac or a PC, that is a basic  
requirement
for those of us who are vision impaired.  When it comes down to  
that issue,

if your using a Mac or PC it just doesn't matter, you need access.

Therefore, while Jaws runs on a PC and VO on a Mac, comparisons as  
to how
accessible things are are rightful and that's what it comes down to  
in the
end.  I don't debate the quality and idea that a Mac is better.   
However,
like it or not, Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard and benchmark  
for
blind access to the computer.  So, I feel I'm right in comparing  
them.  How
does weighing the accessibility I had with Jaws verses the  
accessibility I
have with VO cause problems and how is that going to trip me up.   
Jaws gave
me greater access than what I'm getting with VO.  Now, I'm learning  
about VO
and maybe I get to a point where this isn't an issue but I strongly  
disagree
with your suggestion here that comparing the accessibility one  
achieves from
one product or the other is somehow problematic.  If I'm entering  
the market
for a computer its probably near the top of the list for me if I'm  
blind.
I've got to be sure that I can access the applications that I  
need.  If I
feel that Jaws gives me more access I may go that rout but I bet  
most people
when it comes down to it would admit that how accessible the screen  
reader
makes things is a huge part of the decision.  I'd like to be able  
to ask for

help and info here without being criticized because I compare my
accessibility experiences.  Its part of it!!!


Thanks, Larry




From: David Poehlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2005/12/20 Tue PM 04:18:40 EST

To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac  
OS X by

the

blind <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: VO and web page access

Hi all,

The below message poses some interesting questions and I'll answer
them from the perspective that we are at vo v1.0.

First though, jaws is out.  If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but

you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there.  There is a  
lot

you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
access goes.

Your link has some issues that jaws and ie hide quite well and yes,

the issues are real and it looks like VO is at fault but for the  
fact
that it does quite a bit of the web well.  One thing that can  
help is

to turn off cursor tracking with vokeys-shift-f3.  You can also try
building links lists using vo keys with u and element lists with vo
keys-i.  In these lists, you can cruise or type ahead.  As you type,
the lists shorten and if your string is unique enough, you end up
with one link on which you press space and away you go.  It gets
faster and easier with a bit of practice.

On your bofa site issue, I use it too and have not seen this issue.
I do see an issue where you type in an amount and have to wait a bit
to tab till the date field comes up but that is due to page

processing not VO.  You can mittigate this to some degree by  
using vo

keys with arrows and going to the date field, selecting the date,
then typing the amount in the amount field.  The orientation is
different, but it works well and becomes easy.


I don't do computer digital audio but I know there's been a good  
deal

of discussion of it on the list and perhaps if you sent three
messages, one for each topic, folk would find it easier to respond.

All the best.

--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s



On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:54 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


Hi,

I just wanted to share some observations/concerns about VO

accessibility on the web that I've noticed in hopes that someone  
else

can check some of this out and see what they end up with.

My biggest concern when buying the Mac was in fact web access.  I'm
on the web a lot so it was important to me.  Unfortunately, I've
noticed a few issues.  If you go over to www.ilounge.com, you will
find that it appears to be a page with frames.  It has a top frame
with all kinds of links in it and then a great many links down the

left side of the page.  Finally, there is a large frame in the  
middle

where text and news headlines are and finally a smaller frame with
advertisements over on the right.  It appears to be somewhat a
complex page.  When I was working with Jaws on the PC I could easily
move from one frame to the next on pages.  Unfortunately, if I move
to interact with the HTML content and start moving with VO keys and
the arrows, it doesn't seem that I can make it out of the top frame

of the page.  I think the last link I hear is RSS and then if I  
arrow

right or down again I hear nothing.  After a second or two it jumps
down to the bottom of the page and reads the legal stuff like Apple
and iPod are property of Macintosh or whatever.  Any ideas on how I
can improve my ability to interact with this page?

Second, I bank with Bank of America and do everything on
www.bankofamerica.com.  For the most part I do all right with it.
However, two issues here.  Once I'm logged in and using my account I
run in to some difficulties.  One of them is that the site is
designed to be very user friendly for screen readers and contains
links that say skip to main content or to skip past this section.
The links you would be skipping run down the left side of the page
and are announcements, links to banking options and things like

that.  I know, I'm about to reference back to Jaws again but its  
what

I knew and was most comfortable with.  In Jaws I could click one of
these skip to links and jump on to the next section of the page.

However, nose such luck in VO.  I'm unsure of what the problem is  
but

when I select one of these links nothing at all happens.  The focus
doesn't move to the main content or even from that link.  Any ideas?

The other difficulty I have with that same page is when I pay my

bills online.  I get a page with all of my payees on it and can  
enter

amounts and the date to pay them.  When I enter the amount to pay by
typing in to the appropriate field and go to leave the field, rather
than continuing on from that point, VO seems to go back to the first
link on the page.  I'd rather have it keep going forward from that
very same spot and not need to start over at the top of the page.

I'm less than thrilled at navigation on the web with VO and this  
just

complicates things.  Thoughts and suggestions welcome.

Finally, just curious if anyone uses a mail program that is simpler
than the one that comes as part of OSX.

Oh and I wonder if anyone has suggestions on a program to use to get
album art for all of my music.  I have a massive music library and
have just enough vision to do some things in iTunes but all of the
CD's I've burned do not have album art.

Thanks.> > --









































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