You are not wrong.
On 20 Sep 2007, at 21:47, VaShaun Jones wrote:
My thoughts exactly. Curning is what I use the most and what MS
Word knows the least about. It presents well, but not perfect. This
is the program that I was looking for when producing documents that
are better than a sighted user. Most use Word or Word perfect that
gives you that word processing feeling. Trust me their is a
difference. The look of a document shows allot about the person who
is writing it. It is not like a blog post, I am interested in
landing blind and low vision contracts with government department
heads and the only thing they look at is "the documents". If I can
get a edge then I will use it. Being blind does not excuse me as
one blind individual from doing the best that I can do. I can't
speak for anyone else.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac
OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: MS Word alternative
Yes there is a "look" to word processing documents. Even the best
word processors do not do typesetting which is what TeX does. Here
are some points to consider from someone trained in the graphic
arts (BFA Design BYU 980)
Kerning - An almost lost art, kerning is the skill of knowing when
and by how much to move letters closer or further apart from one
another. TeX has very sophisticated kerning control that changes
as the type is increased or decreased in size.
Hyphenation - Word processors hyphenate but true book grade
hyphenation is a skill and science few few if any word processors
do at the level TeX supports. Also there is the matter of the
typographic placement of hyphens. In typesetting the hyphen
extends ever so slightly beyond the right magian of the page.
Ligatures - situations where some combinations of letters are
treated as one ff ffl and so on. There are dozens of these and
the rules for when you use them and when you don't are complex.
Some word processor support ligatures but none know the rules for
their application so they will simply march through a document
making substitutions. A related area is when you use the dot less
i and j. TeX knows the rules.
Rivers - quality typesetting of the kind that TeX produces will
not have what are called rivers in the text. It is this quality
that your coworkers are likely noticing even if they do not know
the term. A river occurs on the printed page when spaces between
words line up down the page to produce a visual while line down
the page, a river. Typesetters avoid this by padding the space
between letters with bits of lead strips. When TeX run it sets
the page over and over again until it find just the right amount
of adjustment to eliminate rivers.
There are dozens of other typographic techniques that TeX dose as
well. Some of them are rather handy. If you professor or boss
wants a 5 page paper and no more or less you can have TeX take
out or add tiny amounts of space between the letters and the
lines to ether stretch or shrink a document as needed. Unless
your professor is a typesetter he will never notice. I did this a
great deal in college.
Greg Kearney
535 S. Jackson St.
Casper, Wyoming 82601
307-224-4022
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sep 20, 2007, at 1:42 PM, James Austin wrote:
My friends tell me that the documents are beautifully
formatted, they do not "look" word processed - whatever that
means. Do word processed documents have a certain "look" to
them, can people tell that something is word processed? just
curious.
Thanks
James
On 20 Sep 2007, at 19:16, Dane Trethowan wrote:
Well, I used an Ibook and a Power PC Mac Mini up until 4 weeks
ago, used Nisus and every other damn thing on it <smile>. I must
say though and I hope people don't take any offense at this as
I don't mean to be offensive but how could a blind person
produce a document better than a sighted person can if he
cannot see the documents sighted people produce? Sure, you do
the best you can but the claim made here I think is.... well at
best... a little odd.
On 21/09/2007, at 12:50 AM, James Jolley wrote:
To a point but it comes over slightly arrogant.
Just because you can use a word processor or write well doesn't
make you any better than anyone else. Actually, you didn't
really need a mac book pro for VO, I only have the standard mac
book and I am doing perfectly fine.
----- Original Message ----- From: "VaShaun Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
llc.com
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS Xby theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: MS Word alternative
What I do is bid on government contracts for local and state
scripting and training work for blind or low vision companies.
MS Word has been great but like I said I spend most of my
time formatting documents, as every bid is different. It is
my determination to create documents better than a sighted
person. I don't use word processors to type text I use it as a
vehicle to ensure that we have jobs as blind. I do this by
being the best example through my work. If they looked at my
documents usually about 75 pages and said it was OK to turn in
shoddy work because he is blind. That would infuriate me and
make us as a whole go back a few notches. I am willing to
learn whatever is needed to get ahead. I walked into Micro
Center and said give me that big bad Mac Book Pro, the guy
asked if I was doing graphics design or something. I smiled and
told him nope just VO. He said then you don't need that much
computer for that. I said I will master it in two months and
come back and teach you a few things. I say all of that
because I asked for a perfect word processor and it sounds
like Latex is just that. I don't take the easy way out. I hope
you understand what I do and why I do it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Jolley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: MS Word alternative
Hi Dane,
Yeah it seems odd to me. After all, if Tex is all its cracked
up to be wich it is in it's proper circle, why have screen
reader folks spent all this blody time getting office and
other things doable? Why not have everyone learn tex? After
all, this guy who is working for the government, surely they
they should train him on using it then?
On 20 Sep 2007, at 05:20, Dane Trethowan wrote:
Ok, well my only further comment is to go and try these
things, I've made my points as have others, see what you
think but again I will state as others have that it sees odd
to me at least that you have to "learn" how to use a word
processor, formatting or no formatting, reports or no
reports etc. I'm curious to know exactly what you would do
that anyone else wouldn't, that is to say what you would do
that any good word processor wouldn't handle.
On 20/09/2007, at 8:52 AM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
Fine for you unfortunately for me. I use every aspect of
Windows imaginable for government reports and contracts and
they have to be perfect. I spend the majority of my time
formatting.
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Jolley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use
of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: MS Word alternative
Well, using TEX for it's intended purpose laying out
formulas is ideal. I still don't see the point in using it
to write standard texts though. Any good word processer
will do the job ust as well to be honest. It's up to
yourselves though if you want to jump through a thousand
hoops to write anything I am happy with word or whatever
for standard work.
On 19 Sep 2007, at 21:56, James Austin wrote:
Wow! I have looked at that side of it, and I'm pleased I
don't study maths
On 19 Sep 2007, at 19:59, James Jolley wrote:
It's not that steep I use it all the time for mathematics
On 19 Sep 2007, at 18:18, Greg Kearney wrote:
That's right the learning curve is steep with TeX, the
rewards are well worth it however.
Greg
On Sep 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, James Austin wrote:
It is free, but please get in touch if you've not used
it before, it is not simply a case of typing as with a
word processor
On 19 Sep 2007, at 17:23, VaShaun Jones wrote:
I think I will be getting Latex . Is it totally
accessible and how much does it cost?
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Austin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the
use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: MS Word alternative
Hi,
Okay, well there is IText Express, a small free word
processing application, similar to Text Edit, which
provides the ability to add footnotes. There is also
Nisus Writer Express, or Nisus Writer Pro, you can
find these at
www.nisus.com
Neither Express or Pro are currently 100% usable with
VO, but very nearly. If you were thinking of
purchasing Nisus Writer, I would recommend the Pro
version, as that seems more accessible.
There is also Latex (pronouned Laytech), which is a
type- setin tool. It is extremely powerful and
versitle, but does require time to learn. Although,
the benefits are rewarding, especially for Blind
users in my personal opinion, as I use it exclusively
for my University assignments. I don't want to clutter
the list with discussions about Latex, so please feel
free to E Mail me off list, if you'd like to know more.
Hope this helps
James
On 19 Sep 2007, at 08:55, VaShaun Jones wrote:
Listers somewhere before I got familiar with my Mac
their was a discussion about a professional word
processor. I wanted to know what it was and how can
I get it? Note: one of its liked features is that
you don't have to worry about formatting (a lister
reported).
******************************
Dane Trethowan
From Melton Victoria Australia
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone uk 0121 288 4976
Phone/tty (+61 3) 9747 975
Fax +61 3 9743 7954
mobile/sms: +61425 777 508
Skype: callto:grtdane12
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Dane Trethowan
From Melton Victoria Australia
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone uk 0121 288 4976
Phone/tty (+61 3) 9747 975
Fax +61 3 9743 7954
mobile/sms: +61425 777 508
Skype: callto:grtdane12
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