On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Ryan Rix <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sounds like "Phong Robotics" is just jealous that "Something New > > > How about we just be excellent to each other > > *spews club mate all over screen* That was impressive, thank you, for that > dichotomy. > > I've tried to not get involved in this since I don't actually think I'm > a big part of the SYNHAK community besides knowing a handful of you > hakkers, but watching all of this evolve has been really unsettling so > I've been talking to some of you wonderful nerds. > > Subleasing the space's resources for private usage is antithetical to > how a hackerspace's community should work, and this is a frightening > precedence, regardless of who is acting in good faith, or who is > not. Torrie has repeatedly brought up valid points which have been spat > down by what appears to be a group of people who are content with the > the idea that SYNHAK should be a private enterprise rather than a > community resource as it was supposed to be when founded. > > The fact that the board feels that it is okay to sidestep membership > vote makes me think that the membership should have real reservations > about trusting the board leadership to properly lead the space in a > trustworthy fashion. > > When put in contrast with the thread regarding AWS funding, it seems > like Justin and Torrie and possibly other membership really have > differences in opinion on how the community should function, and I > would suggest a mediation process to reach a healthy middle ground, > rather than watching the board and officers shit at each other all day. > > * ^^^^This. 1000x this. Stop this discuss list madness already it's crazy.*
> Past that, though, the board has a 501c3 obligation, the membership > should really put some thought in to whether the board is capable of > fulfilling that obligation rather than focusing on short-term gains at > the cost of long term health of community and space. > > - > Ryan Rix > Shit head San Francisco tech worker > > alex kot <[email protected]> writes: > > Sounds like "Phong Robotics" is just jealous that "Something New > > Entertainment" thought of it first. Seriously, what do you propose > > would be a good approach? All I hear is bickering about what should > > have been done. Yes a mistake was made; we need to fix it so the board > > doesn't do it again. Ripping up the lease and moving his stuff out is > > unnecessary. Legally we are in the same boat as riding out the 6 > > months vs. kicking it out now, am I wrong? How about we just be > > excellent to each other and deal with the issue without creating any > > unneeded anger. > > > > On Thursday, March 6, 2014 1:28 PM, Torrie Fischer > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Thursday, March 06, 2014 09:35:44 alex kot wrote: > >> Craig makes a good point. The way I see it all your doing is > > creating > >> unnecessary drama, let the 6 months ride out. Justin did this whole > > thing > >> out of good intent, probably caused him more of headache then if he > > just > >> spent his money at the place it was already at. Issue is already > > done we > >> don't need to create any more issues after this. > > > > I am thoroughly concerned that you see this as "unnecessary". > > > > Any other board member might as well go and sign some other contract > > that > > leases out the space without public discussion. What is preventing > > someone > > from leasing out that front room to Phong Robotics? Letting this go > > sets us up > > for unfathomably awful problems in the future. If I pull out a a wad > > of cash > > and offer $500 on the spot for the exclusive rights to use that room > > for six > > months, and Craig signs the contract, there is nothing that can be > > done about > > it. According to this, they don't need to ask the membership if its > > alright, > > discuss the terms of the lease in advance with the board, or even > > confer with > > the board in any fashion. Just a brief casual mention at the end of a > > weekly > > meeting that seems to suffice. > > > > Heck, it doesn't even have to be Phong Robotics. If OSC Tech Lab wants > > space, > > and the deal is sweet enough, there is nothing stopping them from > > slicing up > > the space into private and common spaces. > > > > Money for a new laser cutter? Sure! You just need to give a > > corporation the > > exclusive right to access a significant portion of the floor space. No > > need to > > consult the members. No need for a board vote. Don't talk to the > > treasurer, > > they won't mind the hurdles. Lawyers are overrated, too. > > > > The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. > > > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thursday, March 6, 2014 12:14 PM, Craig Bergdorf > > <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> imo a 990-t must be filed either way, (not cashing the checks means > > nothing > >> with a sublease that has the building owners signature on it (as he > > will be > >> filin it eitherway)), so why not just run it for 6 months. afaik it's > > too > >> late to do anything else (legally) without pretending events didn't > > happen > >> which could get us in real trouble. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 12:02 PM, a l <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> I'm not sure how you can claim consensus, when as you've pointed > > out,there > >> hadn't been a vote. > >> >My point was that, as far as I understand, just because activity is > > taxable > >> >does not mean we cannot conduct it.we just need to file and collect > > taxes > >> >on these activities. As I pointed out this is additional work and > > the > >> >costs and benefits must be weighed. I have requested that this be > > brought > >> >to the vote since it was brought up in discussion in January. This > > has not > >> >happened. Regards, > >> >Andrew L > >> >On Mar 6, 2014 10:32 AM, "Torrie Fischer" > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, March 05, 2014 10:00:39 a l wrote: > >> >>> Thanks for the relevant sources and calm voicing of concerns. To > > this > >> >>> end: > >> >>> Just because things require taxing does not mean we cannot > > conduct them. > >> >>> We > >> >>> would just need to weigh the benefits and time involved. > >> >> > >> >>As the chief financial officer who is ultimately responsible for > >> >>maintaining our tax records, I would very much rather not bring > > about any > >> >>potential for audits. This is *not worth it* and will require > > substantial > >> >>effort to convince me to deal with it, unless someone else wants > > to > >> >>doocratically step up and handle any unrelated business income and > >> >>maintain that for the next few years. The Champions are also > > welcome to > >> >>initiate a coup to usurp my position. > >> >> > >> >>We lose physical space, I lose more time for non-treasurer things, > > I'm > >> >>responsible for even more legal overhead, future treasurers and > >> >>secretaries > >> >>will be responsible for maintaining the paper trail for the next > > few years > >> >>to prevent audit, etc. > >> >> > >> >>And we want volunteers to handle this? I believe I'm exceptionally > > lucky > >> >>among hackerspace treasurers in that I have a flexible situation > > of > >> >>office space, financial advice, and employment. > >> >> > >> >>Is this $600 worth the pain, including this heated argument that > > has been > >> >>going on for over a week, tearing us apart, and making us look > >> >>dysfunctional to the whole freaking planet? > >> >> > >> >>I'm confident that the community of SYNHAK has reached consensus: > > Do not > >> >>do > >> >>this. > >> >> > >> >>As the Treasurer for SYNHAK, Inc, I wish to inform the board that > > they may > >> >>disregard their treasurer's advice and concerns at their own risk > > at the > >> >>upcoming meeting. I am legally obligated by the bylaws to serve > > the board, > >> >>which I feel I have been doing faithfully and to the best of my > > abilities. > >> >> > >> >>I think many would agree that I am usually the first to give the > > benefit > >> >>of > >> >>the doubt regarding trustworthy actions. As a Member, I wish to > > inform the > >> >>board that the individuals involved have lost my trust and the > > trust of > >> >>many others for not having an open discussion about this up front. > >> >> > >> >>> Regards, > >> >>> Andrew L > >> >>> > >> >>> On Mar 5, 2014 9:24 AM, "Justin Herman" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> >>> > Also since this has been brought up before... > >> >>> > > >> >>> > ...the following activities are specifically excluded from the > >> >>> > definition > >> >>> > > >> >>> > of unrelated trade or business: > >> >>> > - *Volunteer Labor*: Any trade or business is excluded in > > which > >> >>> > substantially all the work is performed for the organization > >> >>> > without > >> >>> > compensation. Some fundraising activities, such as volunteer > >> >>> > operated > >> >>> > bake > >> >>> > sales, may meet this exception. *[Bake SALE at the proposed > >> >>> > Auction?]* > >> >>> > - *Convenience of Members*: Any trade or business is excluded > > that > >> >>> > is > >> >>> > carried on by an organization described in section 501(c)(3) > > or by > >> >>> > a > >> >>> > governmental college or university primarily for the > > convenience of > >> >>> > its > >> >>> > members, students, patients, officers, or employees. A typical > >> >>> > example > >> >>> > of > >> >>> > this is a school cafeteria. *[Selling Arduinos or other > > consumables > >> >>> > in > >> >>> > a vending area?]* > >> >>> > - *Selling Donated Merchandise*: Any trade or business is > > excluded > >> >>> > that consists of selling merchandise, substantially all of > > which > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > organization received as gifts or contributions. Many thrift > > shop > >> >>> > operations of exempt organizations would meet this exception. > > *[All > >> >>> > the donated Computers?]* > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > > http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Un > >> >>> > rela > >> >>> > ted-Business-Income-Tax-Exceptions-and-Exclusions> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Justin Herman > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> >>> >> This has already be researched.... > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Page 17 Section Rental Income: > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> "Generally, income derived from the rental of real property > > and > >> >>> >> incidental personal property is excluded from unrelated > > business > >> >>> >> income." > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> It goes on to state HOW it would not qualify. (if there is a > >> >>> >> mortgage, if > >> >>> >> personal services are rendered, if a parking lot is charged) > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> I thought that this might not relate to us as this doc is > > targeted > >> >>> >> for > >> >>> >> religious orgs. So I called the IRS before and they stated > > that this > >> >>> >> is > >> >>> >> for > >> >>> >> ALL 501(c)(3) orgs. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Devin Wolfe > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> >>> >>> Can you please provide your source? > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> >>> Devin > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> Sent with AquaMail for Android > >> >>> >>> http://www.aqua-mail.com > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> On March 5, 2014 8:55:49 AM Torrie Fischer > >> >>> >>> <[email protected]> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> wrote: > >> >>> >>> I'm wearing my treasurer hat for this. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>>> After some digging around, I've come to the conclusion that > > leasing > >> >>> >>>> out > >> >>> >>>> this space is incredibly likely to be considered a > > violation of our > >> >>> >>>> 501c3 > >> >>> >>>> status as it is unrelated income. That $100/mo will need to > > be > >> >>> >>>> taxed > >> >>> >>>> and > >> >>> >>>> somehow proven that leasing out our space to non-hacking > > purposes > >> >>> >>>> will > >> >>> >>>> further our mission of providing infrastructure to creative > > people. > >> >>> >>>> > >> >>> >>>> I'm not cashing any checks that arrive. > >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> >>>> Discuss mailing list > >> >>> >>>> [email protected] > >> >>> >>>> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> >>> Discuss mailing list > >> >>> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> >>> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> >>> > > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > Discuss mailing list > >> >>> > [email protected] > >> >>> > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>Discuss mailing list > >> >>[email protected] > >> >>https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Discuss mailing list > >> >[email protected] > >> >https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > -- Thanks, Byron D Moran Software Development Consultant (330)992-9766
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