On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncogh...@gmail.com> wrote: > The latest round of discussions have been enlightening, as they have > allowed us to articulate that from pip's point of view, the key > requirement is to be able to tell a backend not to include anything > that wouldn't be included when building via an sdist. > > From flit's point of view, Tomas wants frontends to able to express a > preference between two different failure modes: > > 1. The frontend wants the wheel build to *guarantee* it exactly > matches going via the sdist path > 2. The frontend wants a working wheel build more than it cares about > matching the sdist path
Both of these are handled neatly by my draft posted at the beginning of this thread. OTOH this whole 11th hour discussion of forcing every build system to have in-tree and out-of-tree build support is solving some other problem. I'm not entirely sure what that problem is -- I don't think anyone has articulated it. Your "key requirement" is technically vacuous -- by definition, *any* correct build backend will only include the things that would be included when building via an sdist. Some possible problems that I've seen mentioned in the thread include: - pip doesn't trust build systems to properly support incremental builds, so it wants to force it to throw away the build artifacts after every build - pip wants to enforce builds going via sdists - Thomas / Ralf / I are frustrated at the idea of not supporting incremental builds But the in-tree/out-of-tree build proposal doesn't address any of these problems. Part of the support for it seems to be that it *sounds* like it might somehow provide a compromise between the folks arguing over what pip should do by default, because it provides a way of doing incremental builds that kind of looks like pip's current hack for doing non-incremental builds. But I think this is illusory. We still have to argue over what pip will actually do by default; all this does is replace 1 way of doing incremental builds with 2 ways, and if pip doesn't want to do incremental builds it'll ignore both. Seriously, what problem is this solving? How can we even have a discussion about whether it's the best solution when we don't know that? In my previous emails I was trying to avoid getting into the nitty-gritty of actually critiquing the proposal, because I think it's a fundamental mistake to even try to hash out this kind of complex design at the last minute; for every issue I think of now there's probably another one that none of us have noticed yet. But since everyone else seems so gung-ho to ship this thing without even having that minimal discussion, here are some concerns and questions: If we require every project to support both in-tree and out-of-tree builds, then projects that don't really support out-of-tree builds now need to implement the copytree hack themselves, and they might get it wrong. For example, if you don't correctly clear out the old build tree before copying, your new build could potentially be corrupted by artifacts from your old build. (I'm having flashbacks to the bug reports we get on numpy from people who used setup.py install to upgrade, and because it doesn't uninstall the old version they end up with some combination of old and new versions overlaid on top of each other.) This is a whole new potential failure mode that this proposal is introducing. Is that acceptable? In fact, I'm guessing that pip will not actually cache build directories and re-use them, and will only ever supply empty directories as the out-of-tree build dir. This means that lots of projects are likely to be released without ever testing their build-with-a-non-empty-out-of-tree-build-dir path, and thus it won't work. What are the chances that this turns into another feature that exists in theory but in practice it rusts over and can't be used, because trying to do so would break too often? What happens if a project switches from scons to cmake or vice-versa, and they get passed a build tree that contains foreign build artifacts? Are they prepared to detect this and do something sensible? Traditionally reusing a build context (either an in-place build tree or an out-of-place build tree) is something that only developers do, and they do it manually, so this isn't a problem -- you just send an occasional email to the list saying "hey I just flipped the switch on the build systems, make sure to do a 'git clean' before your next build", or people just reflexively do a 'git clean' any time they get weird results. But now we're proposing to make this a first-class feature to be used by automatic unsupervised build pipelines; are they going to end up producing garbage? Are frontends allowed to move the out-of-tree build directory to another parent directory? Another filesystem? Another machine? Another operating system? what do you they have to preserve if they try? timestamps? inode numbers? (Using inode numbers as part of a change detection algorithm is a totally reasonable thing for a build system to do.) What if a source tree has previously been used for in-place builds, is this allowed to make future out-of-place builds break? Off the top of my head I know openssl's build system has an in-place XOR out-of-place restriction [1]. It looks like CMake is documented to have one as well [2]. There may be no automatic way to *ever* do a out-of-place build in a tree that has previously had an in-place build; you might have to throw out that tree and start over. Is a build system like this compliant? (Notice from [1] that it sounds like openssl handles this situation printing a message to the console saying "lol this build is probably broken idek" and then happily produces a broken build. Notice from [2] that cmake might randomly decide to do an in-place build even if you requested an out-of-place build.) Speaking of which, why do we force backends to support both in-place and out-of-place? Out-of-place is strictly more powerful (if it works at all). Why not make that the only mode of operation? Or: another idea that came up was just passing a flag to the build backend saying whether the source tree was temporary or not, which has the advantage that it's clearly defined (pip certainly knows whether it's going to delete the source tree after it finishes the build), and potentially side-steps a lot of these problems with managing the out-of-tree build cache. Would that be better or worse? I don't know how to answer that given that I don't know what problem we're trying to solve here. Is pip planning to enforce that the source directory is left unmodified? If not, then do we expect that projects will actually skip modifying the source tree in practice? It's *very* easy to accidentally break this rule without realizing it. Will this happen often enough to make this non-viable for whatever we're trying to do here? (I guess it has something to do with getting trustworthy builds from untrustworthy build systems, so this seems relevant.) Does anyone know how widely supported out-of-place builds are *in real life*? I know that all the major build frameworks have the infrastructure, but I'm one of those weirdos who habitually does out-of-place builds whenever I build software by hand, and back when I used to build a lot of software by hand then it was *very* common for this mode of operation to be broken due to whatever weird hack used inside a specific project's build system. It's been ~10 years since I did that often though; maybe things have gotten better? ------ I'm really not trying to be an asshole here :-(. Being the asshole is extremely unpleasant, and I just had throw myself in front of the prepare_build_files train before everyone suddenly realized that whoops, maybe wasn't as great an idea as they thought. But like... everyone does understand right that whatever we put in here, we're stuck with forever? This isn't like some new project where you can release 0.0.1 and then spend a few years noodling around with the API before you release 1.0 and start promising backcompat. This is version 0.0.1 and 1.0 at the same time, and also we can't write any tests until after we release it, and we may never be able to release a 2.0. (Look at WSGI -- I mean, it's tremendously popular and influential, obviously they did some things right, but the spec is full of awful stuff that everyone hates and all its imitators dropped, but fixing it is impossible.) I just don't understand how everyone has the confidence that this proposal is a mature solid thing that will stand the test of time. Maybe it will! But how can you possibly know that when we haven't even scratched the surface of all its implications? Shouldn't the prepare_build_files thing be a clue that your judgement might not be 100% reliable on these things? And the alternative is just like... go ahead and ship something that only supports in-place builds directly (e.g. my draft at the top of this thread), add out-of-place builds later as an optional extension if it's useful, if the frontend really wants an out-of-place build it can fall back on shutil.copytree (plus as a bonus it *knows* that the backend can't make use of the resulting temporary build directory, so it can throw it away instead of caching it, and there's zero chance of cross-build pollution). If anything this seems like the end result would be *superior* to this proposal, and I've seen zero evidence that out-of-core builds are something we need to solve now. Can we please just not? I actually have a list of fiddly details that need to be discussed about the core part of the proposal, but I don't see how we'll ever get to the point of nailing down these kinds of details when all the oxygen is going into this kind of proposal whose implications are too complicated for us to even understand. >> PEP 517 was written in 2015... > > And PEP 426 was written in 2012. Standards development tImelines can > get looong when the status quo at least kinda sorta works, and nobody > has commercial deadlines forcing them to push to standardize new > interfaces before a genuine consensus has developed :) I humbly suggest that this isn't an immutable fact of nature, but rather there are strategies that we can adopt intentionally to reduce the chance of repeating PEP 426's fate. If we want to. -n [1] https://mta.openssl.org/pipermail/openssl-dev/2016-June/007364.html [2] "Note: Before performing an out-of-source build, ensure that all CMake generated in-source build information is removed" -- https://cmake.org/Wiki/CMake_FAQ#What_is_an_.22out-of-source.22_build.3F -- Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
