Daryl, I've never called anyone egocentric here, maybe thinking in a very short-term - yes (like a person, who is making decision just by current needs and not thinking about future at all)
> With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist / deny), these may be viewed as trend-following, but a deeper study of both nomenclature will inform you that current technology in databases no longer follows the original meaning of master / slave, so a new or different name is required. Well, this is exactly what trend-following means, I don't know how to argue here. Please feel free to explain what is trend following means in your opinion. > Remember, it's all about the future users of Django, not just the current users. Oh, I'm sure about it, but it doesn't mean those changes as smart, right? Again, as I spend a lot of time explaining why renaming now is a bad thing, and I'm keep hearing again and again racism is bad and everybody are doing it, and for some reason renaming terms is a good thing again and again As a final though here (and I promise I'm not going you tire you any longer) I want to tell you a story that happens in parallel universe. Again, sorry for my English, I spend a lot of time explaining technical things in English, and study philosophy in Russian, but have being involved in English discussion like this before, which I'm obviously failed. So, this universe looks exactly the same, fight for freedom, US-news, BLM, Django etc... In this word developers said "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. Some of community members have sent proposal for renaming blacklist, but we 100% sure, that this term has nothing to do with racism. Moreover, terms can't explain things 100% clear, we just use those terms to explain things faster. Because we are here is not for inventing and reinventing new terms, we are here for building new things. Let me explain in example. When one dev from US said to another dev from France - "don't forget to add blacklist functionality here", that explains a lot, because term blacklist is commonly known term. Someone, from community have an idea to rename all blacklist in source code to allowlist, and don't use term "blacklist" at all. Well in that case when dev from France will ask "allowlist is a list which is allowed to be expended? Or allowlist is a list that is allowed to be used by other lists?", the US-dev will answer "No, don't use read US-newspapers? allowlist is the same as blacklist but without racism", thats why we don't want to reinvent terms for what ever reason. Thank you for understanding" But in the same world astrophysicists haven't been that wise, so they claimed: "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. Thats why we decide not to use term "black hole" instead we will use term "heavy thing", we've asked a lot of other astrophysicists and they all agree that "heavy thing" explains thing better, of course, we are not following for renaming trend, we are here for science, it is just a good time to rename something that we have planed to rename long time ago. Remember, this all is for future generation of astrophysicists not for current generation, because we think, that the next generation will be much dumber and we should help them to understand new terms" Thank you, and again, with all respect and with hope for the better future. On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 1:14:13 AM UTC+3, Daryl wrote: > > The focus while reading the Django pages should be on the differences > between Django's governance approach (long term goal settings, a board of > technical experts, meritocratic decision making) vs the many frameworks and > projects that have flashed in the pan (please excuse me for using a phrase > that some languages might not understand). > Typically flash-in-the-pan projects have fewer experts, and control and > decision making is *usually* meritocratic but sometimes egocentric. > Eventually, no matter how bright the initial flash is, decisions by the > self-chosen few are made that result in the failure of the project. > > This isn't to say that a failed project is not of value - many of the > learnings from failed projects are rolled into even better projects, but > this is not what Django is about. The developers quickly realised (way back > in the days when the initial developer's own newspaper project was the > largest Django installation around) that a strong governance structure > would be required. > > With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist / > deny), these may be viewed as trend-following, but a deeper study of both > nomenclature will inform you that current technology in databases no longer > follows the original meaning of master / slave, so a new or different name > is required. This might not suit people of my age who grew up with > master/slave databases and understand the non-racist use of the words, but > why should the current nomenclature suit just me? > Master / slave patterns still exist in some databases, but generally the > idea of one node being a master is getting rare. This is somewhat poetic, > as it mirrors the real world where in most countries, where the trend is > (hopefully) away from master / slave relationships. > > My personal opinion for the 2nd topic (blacklist / whitelist / allow / > deny) is that this is a good time to pick a more descriptive name, and > allow/deny would mirror the linux hosts.allow and hosts.deny logic that has > been perfectly apt for 4 decades or more, and AFAIK is a better description > in most spoken languages in use today. You (Alexander) may prefer > "blacklist", and some of the technical board may also prefer "blacklist" (i > don't know) but you can rest assured that the decision would have been made > without significant weight being applied to the technical board member's > *personal* experiences, but the experiences of every *future* user of the > framework. > > Finally, in order to argue against changing these names (which has been > pointed out has already been merged) you would have to come up with an > argument to show reputational or technical harm would be done by changing. > Of all the users who have posted on the list who *disagree* with the > changes, none have written an argument with substantial merit in my opinion. > > Remember, it's all about the future users of Django, not just the current > users. > > D > > > > > On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 08:10, Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now. >> >> > One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by >> one strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following. >> >> renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. I >> understand that not everybody are following US-news, but if you google >> "blacklist blm" you will find, how big the trend is, actually. >> >> Also, thank you sharing those link, but can you plz elaborate more, why >> do you bring those and what do you what to proof by sharing those links, so >> when I read those links again, I know on what point I should focus more. >> >> Thank you for being involved in this conversation. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to django-d...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > -- > ====================== > Daryl Egarr, Director > Kawhai Consultants Ltd > Cell 021 521 353 > da...@kawhai.net <javascript:> > ====================== > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/ed2feff6-f54d-4461-920f-be74306821e7o%40googlegroups.com.
