I'm sorry for my bad English On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 4:40:07 PM UTC+3, John Obelenus wrote: > > Alex I find the notion that you think changing terms that have bad racial > connotations to be "embarrassing" to be entirely without merit. It is not > embarrassing to consider the feelings of Black and other minority people > when using language. Moreover, racism is not simply a US only phenomenon. > It is a world wide phenomenon. > > +1 to making these changes and removing racial undertones from this > project. To stand against this change is to refuse to hear the opinions of > those who are hurt. That is exclusionary and lacks empathy. > > On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 6:20:28 AM UTC-4, Alexander Lyabah wrote: >> >> Daryl, >> >> I've never called anyone egocentric here, maybe thinking in a very >> short-term - yes (like a person, who is making decision just by current >> needs and not thinking about future at all) >> >> > With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist / >> deny), these may be viewed as trend-following, but a deeper study of both >> nomenclature will inform you that current technology in databases no longer >> follows the original meaning of master / slave, so a new or different name >> is required. >> >> Well, this is exactly what trend-following means, I don't know how to >> argue here. Please feel free to explain what is trend following means in >> your opinion. >> >> > Remember, it's all about the future users of Django, not just the >> current users. >> >> Oh, I'm sure about it, but it doesn't mean those changes as smart, right? >> >> Again, as I spend a lot of time explaining why renaming now is a bad >> thing, and I'm keep hearing again and again racism is bad and everybody are >> doing it, and for some reason renaming terms is a good thing again and again >> >> As a final though here (and I promise I'm not going you tire you any >> longer) I want to tell you a story that happens in parallel universe. >> >> Again, sorry for my English, I spend a lot of time explaining technical >> things in English, and study philosophy in Russian, but have being involved >> in English discussion like this before, which I'm obviously failed. >> >> So, this universe looks exactly the same, fight for freedom, US-news, >> BLM, Django etc... >> >> In this word developers said "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. >> Some of community members have sent proposal for renaming blacklist, but we >> 100% sure, that this term has nothing to do with racism. Moreover, terms >> can't explain things 100% clear, we just use those terms to explain things >> faster. Because we are here is not for inventing and reinventing new terms, >> we are here for building new things. Let me explain in example. When one >> dev from US said to another dev from France - "don't forget to add >> blacklist functionality here", that explains a lot, because term blacklist >> is commonly known term. Someone, from community have an idea to rename all >> blacklist in source code to allowlist, and don't use term "blacklist" at >> all. Well in that case when dev from France will ask "allowlist is a list >> which is allowed to be expended? Or allowlist is a list that is allowed to >> be used by other lists?", the US-dev will answer "No, don't use read >> US-newspapers? allowlist is the same as blacklist but without racism", >> thats why we don't want to reinvent terms for what ever reason. Thank you >> for understanding" >> >> But in the same world astrophysicists haven't been that wise, so they >> claimed: "We 100% support BLM, we against any racism. Thats why we decide >> not to use term "black hole" instead we will use term "heavy thing", we've >> asked a lot of other astrophysicists and they all agree that "heavy thing" >> explains thing better, of course, we are not following for renaming trend, >> we are here for science, it is just a good time to rename something that we >> have planed to rename long time ago. Remember, this all is for future >> generation of astrophysicists not for current generation, because we think, >> that the next generation will be much dumber and we should help them to >> understand new terms" >> >> Thank you, and again, with all respect and with hope for the better >> future. >> >> On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 1:14:13 AM UTC+3, Daryl wrote: >>> >>> The focus while reading the Django pages should be on the differences >>> between Django's governance approach (long term goal settings, a board of >>> technical experts, meritocratic decision making) vs the many frameworks and >>> projects that have flashed in the pan (please excuse me for using a phrase >>> that some languages might not understand). >>> Typically flash-in-the-pan projects have fewer experts, and control and >>> decision making is *usually* meritocratic but sometimes egocentric. >>> Eventually, no matter how bright the initial flash is, decisions by the >>> self-chosen few are made that result in the failure of the project. >>> >>> This isn't to say that a failed project is not of value - many of the >>> learnings from failed projects are rolled into even better projects, but >>> this is not what Django is about. The developers quickly realised (way back >>> in the days when the initial developer's own newspaper project was the >>> largest Django installation around) that a strong governance structure >>> would be required. >>> >>> With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist / >>> deny), these may be viewed as trend-following, but a deeper study of both >>> nomenclature will inform you that current technology in databases no longer >>> follows the original meaning of master / slave, so a new or different name >>> is required. This might not suit people of my age who grew up with >>> master/slave databases and understand the non-racist use of the words, but >>> why should the current nomenclature suit just me? >>> Master / slave patterns still exist in some databases, but generally the >>> idea of one node being a master is getting rare. This is somewhat poetic, >>> as it mirrors the real world where in most countries, where the trend is >>> (hopefully) away from master / slave relationships. >>> >>> My personal opinion for the 2nd topic (blacklist / whitelist / allow / >>> deny) is that this is a good time to pick a more descriptive name, and >>> allow/deny would mirror the linux hosts.allow and hosts.deny logic that has >>> been perfectly apt for 4 decades or more, and AFAIK is a better description >>> in most spoken languages in use today. You (Alexander) may prefer >>> "blacklist", and some of the technical board may also prefer "blacklist" (i >>> don't know) but you can rest assured that the decision would have been made >>> without significant weight being applied to the technical board member's >>> *personal* experiences, but the experiences of every *future* user of the >>> framework. >>> >>> Finally, in order to argue against changing these names (which has been >>> pointed out has already been merged) you would have to come up with an >>> argument to show reputational or technical harm would be done by changing. >>> Of all the users who have posted on the list who *disagree* with the >>> changes, none have written an argument with substantial merit in my opinion. >>> >>> Remember, it's all about the future users of Django, not just the >>> current users. >>> >>> D >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 08:10, Alexander Lyabah <a.l...@checkio.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now. >>>> >>>> > One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* >>>> polluted by one strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or >>>> trend-following. >>>> >>>> renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. >>>> I understand that not everybody are following US-news, but if you google >>>> "blacklist blm" you will find, how big the trend is, actually. >>>> >>>> Also, thank you sharing those link, but can you plz elaborate more, why >>>> do you bring those and what do you what to proof by sharing those links, >>>> so >>>> when I read those links again, I know on what point I should focus more. >>>> >>>> Thank you for being involved in this conversation. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/267f6649-a434-47fb-93c9-880b594d213ao%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> ====================== >>> Daryl Egarr, Director >>> Kawhai Consultants Ltd >>> Cell 021 521 353 >>> da...@kawhai.net >>> ====================== >>> >>
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