On Jun 10, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
> Matt Simerson writes:
>
>> If message headers and footers are so popular, how do you explain
>> the continued "please unsubscribe me posts" sent to practically
>> every mailing list?
>
> Bell curve. Some people are 2-sigma self-centered, and others are
> 2-sigma clueless. What else is new?[1]
>
> Note that the kind of people who answer FAQs do like having the footer
> so they can say "just click on the link in the footer of any message,
> including this one."
That just seems to reinforce the point that the message alterations are far
more popular with list *operators* than they are with list *users.*
I can't help but think that all this energy would be better spent focusing on
solutions that provides a consistent method for email lists to present their
decoration and admin URIs without breaking DKIM. Something that:
a) Identifies messages as list traffic (aka: List-ID)
b) Incorporates list info into headers (see below)
c) Requests MUA authors to identify list messages in a safe and useful
fashion**
I fully realize that c) is a can of worms, but I can't help but think that MUA
authors are equal to the task. If we provided them with a defined set of
Mailing List Actions that were enabled when the MLM software populated the
appropriate headers, we could eliminate the vast majority of message
alterations.
List-ID: <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Prefix: dmarc-ietf (MUA: prefix the subject with this string)
List-Unsubscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
List-Unsubscribe: mailto://[email protected]
List-Archives:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dmarc/current/maillist.html
List-Preferences: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
If an implementation of "how to present this in a useful way" was available in
JS and PHP, it could likely be incorporated into releases of *most* webmail
clients in a matter of months.
Matt
** Mail.app already provides a dropdown list of options when one hovers their
mouse over the From and To recipients. It's not hard to imagine a section of
that list being List Functions / Manage My Subscription. Similarly, the subject
prefix could be decorated with a disclosure triangle that when clicked,
presented the list options.
>> Also while it's certainly true that subject prefixes are popular
>> with list operators, I didn't hear a single peep from my list users
>> when I removed them.
>
> Sure, there are groups like that, some quite large and varied, as
> yours seems to be. On the other hand, I've participated in a couple
> of lists where there was vociferous opposition to removing them from
> several users because they had MUA filters based on them. (Whether
> they constituted a significant fraction of the membership is unclear.)
No doubt. I've been on such lists, where just the discussion of it alone
generated vast amounts of controversy. But if they silently disappeared in the
dead of night, approximately 1% of participants would notice and 0.1% would
care. Granted, that 0.1% would likely squeal very loudly, until you pointed
out they can filter using the list headers.*
> Removal of prohibited content is not so easily addressed, as left to
> their own devices users' .doc and .mp4 files can constitute a large
> fraction of outgoing bandwidth from list servers that otherwise don't
> need much (on a couple of my lists we still get the occasional
> oldtimer sending core files for debugging!)
In such cases, don't you think it's appropriate for the list to take ownership
of the message, after applying the transformations necessary to make it conform
to site policy?
Matt
* Incomplete, but covers a goodly portion of list traffic:
var mlms = {
'Mailing-List' : [
{ mlm: 'ezmlm', match: 'ezmlm' },
{ mlm: 'yahoogroups', match: 'yahoogroups' },
],
'Sender' : [
{ mlm: 'majordomo', start: 'owner-' },
],
'X-Mailman-Version' : [ { mlm: 'mailman' }, ],
'X-Majordomo-Version': [ { mlm: 'majordomo' }, ],
'X-Google-Loop' : [ { mlm: 'googlegroups' } ],
};
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