-------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:29:25 +0100 > Von: "Imposit.com - Webmaster" <webmas...@imposit.com> > An: dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > Betreff: Re: [Dspam-user] DSPAM 3.9.0 BETA 4
> Hi Steve, > Hallo Martin, > I dont think is too complicated either, but the access to understand dspam > is. > Everything with statistics is for non mathematical persons not easy to understand. If one wants to understand the techniques behind DSPAM then read this PDF here -> http://www-stat.stanford.edu/~tibs/ElemStatLearn/ <- and this here -> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/courses/archive/fall07/cos126/assignments/markov.html <- and this here -> http://www.amsta.leeds.ac.uk/~charles/statlog/ <- and and and... I could point out a bunch of other resources one could read to understand how machine learning works. DSPAM does nothing fancy. It uses those principles to process and learn. > About the idea to split conf files: > The easierst way would and should be making markers to import the conf > file > like @import /path; > Thanks to Hugo Monteiro something like that is already implemented in DSPAM 3.9.0 series. The configure switch is called "--enable-split-configuration" if I am not wrong. > So every user can deside if it make sense or not, how to split and where > any > why and how often > If they want they can make 20 configs :-) > > Personally I would love to see only 5 lines in the config: the DB > connection. > Rest of it should be in a table .... (okokok I know, maybe I love dbs to > much :-) > You know that the whole DSPAM admin team hates SQL and databases. We strongly believe in NoSQL. No! I am joking :) > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > > Datum: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:19:36 +0100 > > Von: "Imposit.com - Webmaster" <webmas...@imposit.com> > > An: dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > Betreff: Re: [Dspam-user] DSPAM 3.9.0 BETA 4 > > > Shure ist not so hard to configure, > > If you know Dspam. > > > > Its normal for us who knows how and what to do with dspam (more or less > > :-) > > to say its not hard to configure. > > We forgot how hard the first time was :-) > > > > But I see there no way out. Dspam is a Product for Hosters not enduser. > > Its > > their normal job getting into complex Applications, adapt them and use > > them. > > > > If you want to make it easier thers a simple solution: > > First Restrukture the Documentation or make two of it. > > Means One is a Step by Step first install, second the inside all about > > Dpsam > > Documentation. > > > > This will help at first steps. They have to learn it more inside anyway > > and > > this I not nessesary a bad thing. > > > Any one is welcome to write that documentation. As it turns out I am to > deep > involved into DSPAM to see the real problems a beginner might have with > DSPAM. So I am not the best person doing that task. > > > > I think its absolutely the wrong investing now time into make it easier > > instead of bringing dspam into his next generation. > > How many daemons you know where the setup is easy? > > Did you ever setup and apache host (ther are compileoptions a user take > > days > > to understand what they man and even years to know when they need them > and > > not even to think about the configuration)... > > > I would say that DSPAM is not harder then SpamAssassin, CRM114, OSBF-Lua, > Bogofilter, etc... > > Why is all this complain about how complex it is to setup DSPAM? I really > don't get it. Internet -> MTA -> DSPAM -> Inject back into MTA -> Deliver > > The whole DSPAM part is really not that hard. A hand full settings inside > dspam.conf and one is done with the setup. The integration inside the MTA > or > the gluing together with the MTA is the hard part. But I really, really > don't see DSPAM configuration such a ultra - giga - big issue. Am I so > wrong? > > Has any one of you ever setup another Anti-Spam system in the same range > as > DSPAM that was way, way easier to setup as DSPAM? What product was/is > that? > > > > No dpsam is design to be an enterpriselevel system not an enduser > desktop > > filter. The question is not to make a setup easier. > > The question is how to make it easier to understand dspam and its > > strukture > > - here the apache website documentation is a good way to go ..... > > > > BTW I want to say again that it would be really nessesary getting rid of > > saved files into the Filesystem and replace it with a database driven > > system > > (even when it means that hash no longer works). > > It will make things simplier - many permission issue will be solved that > > way. Even Problems to scale the system and many other things > > > Right! I would like to do that. A lot of things needs then to be changed > in > user land. All the small and easy bash tools reading directly from the > filesystem would need to be enhanced or DSPAM needs to deliver an > interface > that one can hook into to get the needed data. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: Steve [mailto:steeeeev...@gmx.net] > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 16:24 > > An: dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > Betreff: Re: [Dspam-user] DSPAM 3.9.0 BETA 4 > > > > > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > > > Datum: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:44:03 +0100 > > > Von: Tom Hendrikx <t...@whyscream.net> > > > An: Steve <steeeeev...@gmx.net> > > > CC: dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Betreff: Re: [Dspam-user] DSPAM 3.9.0 BETA 4 > > > > > Steve wrote: > > > > > > >> If you would introduce something like Dovecots macro processing of > > > >> usernames and domains into Dspam, you can obsolete > > > >> --enable-homedir, --enable-long-usernames, --enable-domain-scale, > > > >> --enable-large-scale, --with-dspam-home and maybe more from > > > >> configure, *and* gain more flexibility for power setups. Aaaaah, > > > >> simplicity.... > > > >> > > > > @simplicity: That would be more complicated then two simple options > > > > (either domain- or large scale). > > > > > > You would remove 5 configure switches that no first-timer understands > > > for something that can (and probably should) be handled more elegantly > > > in a configuration file, where changes to directory paths are applied > to > > > configuration items named like "user_homedir": a name that reflects a > > > directory path. And *that* is simple and understandable to anyone. > > > > > You write as if I was the one making up that decision to implement stuff > > that way. It's not me. I am just the poor DSPAM user working the last > > months > > almost exclusively on developing and fixing issues in DSPAM. > > > > The good think to have this as compile option is that you can overstep > the > > reading of dspam.conf in some situations and using what the user has set > > on > > compile time. This saves time. > > > > Having everything configurable inside dspam.conf would definitely be a > > great > > option but does not necessarily makes things less complex. In some areas > > it > > makes things more complex. One of such things is the Web-UI where you > > would > > need to ensue read access to dspam.conf for the tools and if some one is > > running the Web UI in a chroot then things get more complicated. > > > > Using variables would be cool. But I am sure that most users would not > > fiddle around with default setups. When looking at what Dovecot allows > > then > > I am sure that most users would just use: > > %u - username > > %n - user part in u...@domain, same as %u if there's no domain > > %d - domain part in u...@domain, empty if there's no domain > > %h - home directory > > > > I personally would like to have more then just that. I would like to > have > > the offset functionality as well. That would allow me to implement large > > scale by just using %h/%1u/%2.1u/%u and domain scale by just using > > %h/%d/%u. > > > > However... one would need to tweak that since DSPAM does not follow > strict > > <1st char>/<2nd char>/<full username> for large scale. If the user name > > has > > a "." on the 2nd character then the directory might look like this for > > user > > d.u...@domain.tld: /var/spool/dspam/data/d/d.u...@domain.tld/. This > > basically breaks the assumption that every user can be reached 3 levels > > down > > the data root if one is using large scale. > > > > >>From my viewpoint this is a bug in DSPAM. But probably John has never > > thought about that a dot has a special meaning on some file systems and > > that > > /var/spool/dspam/data/d/./d.u...@domain.tld is equal to > > /var/spool/data/d/d.u...@domain.tld > > > > > > > > It's all written in the doc. > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > Then he has not read the documentation. > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > And DSPAM preferences are like that. If you read the documentation > > > > then you will see where you need to change them in order to have > > > > proper working preferences for a user. It's simple once you have > read > > > > the documentation and not just read but understood. > > > > > > > Again, I do not think a new user needs to spend 2 days of > documentation > > > reading before he can get a test setup running. > > > > > He does not! If one just installs DSPAM and does not fiddle around then > he > > can have DSPAM up and running in no time. > > > > 1) Install DSPAM > > - apt-get install dspam dspam-webfrontend > > - emerge dspam dspam-web > > - rpm -Uvh dspam > > - etc > > > > 2) Configure storage backend inside dspam.conf (for this example I use > > MySQL) > > - edit/change: MySQLServer, MySQLUser, MySQLPass, MySQLDb, > > StorageDriver > > > > 3) Configure the delivery and server/client stuff inside dspam.conf: > > - edit/change: DeliveryHost 127.0.0.1 > > - edit/change: DeliveryPort 10026 > > - edit/change: DeliveryIdent localhost > > - edit/change: DeliveryProto SMTP > > - edit/change: ServerDomainSocketPath "/var/run/dspam/dspam.sock" > > - edit/change: ClientHost "/var/run/dspam/dspam.sock" > > - edit/change: ClientIdent "<password>@dspam_localhost" > > > > 4) Import the database schema into MySQL > > - mysqladmin --user=root -p create dspam > > - mysql --user=root -p > > > GRANT SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE ON dspam.* TO > > 'dspam_admin'@'localhost' IDENTIFIED BY 'dspam_admin_password'; > > > GRANT SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE ON dspam.* TO > > 'dspam_admin'@'localhost.localdomain' IDENTIFIED BY > > 'dspam_admin_password'; > > > FLUSH PRIVILEGES; > > > quit; > > - mysql --user=root -p dspam < > > src/tools.mysql_drv/mysql_objects-speed.sql > > - mysql --user=root -p dspam < src/tools.mysql_drv/virtual_users.sql > > > > 5) Integrate DSPAM with his MTA (for example Postfix) > > - edit master.cf > > smtp inet n - n - - smtpd > > -o content_filter=lmtp:unix:/var/run/dspam/dspam.sock > > > > 127.0.0.1:10026 inet n - n - - smtpd > > -o content_filter= > > -o local_header_rewrite_clients= > > -o local_recipient_maps= > > -o mynetworks=127.0.0.0/8 > > -o mynetworks_style=host > > -o > > > receive_override_options=no_header_body_checks,no_unknown_recipient_checks,n > > o_milters > > -o relay_recipient_maps= > > -o smtp_send_xforward_command=yes > > -o smtpd_authorized_xforward_hosts=127.0.0.0/8 > > -o smtpd_client_connection_count_limit=0 > > -o smtpd_client_connection_rate_limit=0 > > -o smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_mynetworks,reject > > -o smtpd_data_restrictions=reject_unauth_pipelining > > -o smtpd_delay_reject=no > > -o smtpd_end_of_data_restrictions= > > -o smtpd_error_sleep_time=0 > > -o smtpd_hard_error_limit=1000 > > -o smtpd_helo_restrictions= > > -o smtpd_recipient_restrictions=permit_mynetworks,reject > > -o smtpd_restriction_classes= > > -o smtpd_sender_restrictions= > > -o smtpd_soft_error_limit=1001 > > -o strict_rfc821_envelopes=yes > > > > 6) Install and configure the Web-UI > > > > 7) Start the DSPAM daemon (if needed) > > > > 8) Finish > > > > How hard is that? > > > > > > > > DSPAM is very powerful and the problem is that DSPAM is not hiding > > > > things from the user. And the second problem is that some users not > > > > understanding much of DSPAM internals are not using the tools that > > > > make their life easier but go ahead and fiddle around with changing > > > > dspam.conf and directly adding/removing/modifying entries in the > > > > database instead of using the tools that abstract the complexity for > > > > them (for example dspam_admin). > > > > > > > This is a nice one: they don't understand the internals, yet dive into > > > it and fiddle in all the wrong locations. Are there too many > locations, > > > too much documentation explaining too much stuff and not pointing to > the > > > right tools, or too stupid users? > > > > > NO ONE IS STUPID! Real stupid people are rare. > > > > > > > I never saw dspam_admin before bash > > > autocompletion told me of it's existance. Maybe it was in the docs > > > somewhere, but I think I missed it. > > > > > It's mentioned in the README. > > > > > > > The keyword here is: make it more straightforward. Don't write more > docs > > > to explain stuff that is simply 'too hard', but make the process > > > simpler and document in 2 parts: the straightforward way and the stuff > > > with all the background info. > > > Most people who don't run a resource-short server don't care which > > > tokenizer is used, as long as it yields them a 99% success rate. > > > > > They don't care. You are right. But they all cry out loud when they > > realize > > that the choosen tokenizer is not good for them and that they need to > > restart from the scratch and months of training. > > > > > > > >> When I compare the time that I needed to first-time setup Postfix > > > >> for 1 domain and 2 mailboxes (i.e. a test setup) to Dspam with same > > > >> setup: yes, Postfix is easy. I'm not talking about systems with > > > >> gazillion domains/users here, minimal setup should be easier, this > > > >> makes adoption and testing of Dspam much better. ISP-sized setups > > > >> always need special attention so the admin should should give it > > > >> the time and work it needs. It's their work and they know it. > > > >> > > > > DSPAM is not really much harder then Postfix. Installing DSPAM and > > > > configuring it to process mail and tag the mails is easy. Gluing it > > > > together with Postfix is another issue. Can you tell me what was/is > > > > so hard in installing and configuring DSPAM? > > > > > > > > > > This was more than 2 years ago, but I remember at least that I got > > > scared on all the configure switches I didn't understand (or gentoo > use > > > flags for that matter), and then getting swamped in the documentation > > > which is accurate, technical and far too much for a newbie. > > > > > Sorry. But Postfix has way, way, way more configure options then DSPAM. > > And > > the same goes for Dovecot, Apache, etc... they all have more options > then > > DSPAM. > > > > > > > After > > > getting the feeling that I read up on all the things I did not > > > understand, most of the information from the first half of the reading > > > session was already gone. 2 days had passed and I didn't install a > thing > > > yet. After that I just installed and started to get a setup running > > > without understanding if I even started in the right direction. I > > > succeeded in the end, but simply said: it is too f***ing hard for a > > > newbie :) > > > > > > > Bring on the ideas and solutions how to make DSPAM easier. > > > > > > If we can agree on thinking up on this concept: getting new users > > > started easily, combining code changes that make configuration/setup > > > more straightforward, and documentation that helps first-timers > setting > > > things up in say two hours, then bring on the wiki account. > > > > > I could create a bunch of pre-configs for such scenarios. Pretty much > like > > MySQL does and include them in DSPAM and allow users to just execute a > > shell > > script asking them a bunch of questions and then modify dspam.conf, > Apache > > configuration, MTA (Postfix, Exim, Sendmail, etc) and the storage > backend > > (MySQL, SQLite, PostgreSQL, etc). > > > > > > > The domain-/large-scale stuff vs. path macro processing would be a > nice > > > starter. > > > > > I would sure welcome such a macro processing capability but I don't > think > > that this would significantly change the complexity. For a bunch of > > reasons: > > 1) Distro packagers choose the compile options and deliver a binary > > package > > 2) domain-/large-scale is not something preventing people running DSPAM. > I > > even don't remember when someone asked help for that here in the ML. > > > > > > > -- > > > Tom > > > > > Steve > > -- > > Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox > 3.5 > > - > > sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > > 30-Day > > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus > > on > > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > > _______________________________________________ > > Dspam-user mailing list > > Dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dspam-user > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > > 30-Day > > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus > > on > > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > > _______________________________________________ > > Dspam-user mailing list > > Dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dspam-user > > -- > GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! > Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus > on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Dspam-user mailing list > Dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dspam-user > > !DSPAM:1005,4afa1b84272561804284693! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus > on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Dspam-user mailing list > Dspam-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dspam-user -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! 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