Thanks Joe..... 73,
Steve "Lack of money is the root of all evil." S.C. ________________________________ From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <w...@subich.com> To: Crownhaven <crownha...@bellsouth.net> Cc: dx-chat <dx-chat@njdxa.org> Sent: Mon, May 21, 2012 8:16:51 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? On 5/21/2012 7:21 AM, Crownhaven wrote: > When was the last time a DX operation was disqualified for QSLing > practices? Seriously. Maybe some should be. However, I doubt that the DXCC Desk has the balls to disqualify a high profile DXpedition organizer. Seriously! 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/21/2012 7:21 AM, Crownhaven wrote: > When was the last time a DX operation was disqualified for QSLing > practices? Seriously. > Steve, N4JQQ > > Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> >> On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: >> > >>> However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL >>> cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to >>> abide by those terms. >> >> Absolutely not! No operator has a right to discriminate in his QSL >> policy or hold the QSL "hostage" in return for a "contribution" in >> excess of the cost of mailing that QSL. To do so is de facto grounds >> for disqualification under DXCC Rules (12 d): >> >>> d) Blatant inequities in confirmation (QSL) procedures. Continued >>> refusal to issue QSLs under certain circumstances may lead to >>> disqualification. >> >> Any large DXpedition can - and should - seek individual contributions >> before the operation. I would argue that they have a right to cancel >> an operation if the support goals have not been met. However, the >> policy of not uploading logs to LotW for six months or a year after >> a DXPedition, not sending bureau QSLs for six months to a year after >> a DXPedition and policies of not mailing QSLs to non-contributors until >> after the end of the calendar year should be loudly and roundly >> denounced. >> >> Given the ease of uploading QSOs to LotW - after all it is no more >> difficult in uploading the raw logs to ClubLog daily which has become >> standard practice for most major DXpeditions - there is *no* valid >> reason for not uploading the raw logs immediately after the operation >> if not daily during the operation. >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: >>> >>> I'm thinking we all can make the choices we want to make. In terms of >>> DXpeditions costing a lot of money, if you can't take the heat, stay out >>> of the kitchen?????? However, any operator has the right to set his own >>> rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether >>> we want to abide by those terms. Let's call it free enterprise. We're >>> beginning to sound like........I won't say it here. >>> >>> Steve, N4JQQ >>> >>> Zack Widup wrote: >>>> >>>> First off, great presentation Don! >>>> >>>> I thought it gave a great perspective of what these "icebreaker" >>>> DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for >>>> them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of the >>>> cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in a >>>> DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. They >>>> put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally financially, >>>> hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some didn't - they >>>> have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I guess. And our >>>> loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another DXpedition. >>>> >>>> I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of >>>> the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded exorbitant >>>> to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee to get your >>>> equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position thousands of >>>> miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable and unable to >>>> speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate with those >>>> people. >>>> >>>> If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it >>>> seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can. >>>> Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps. >>>> >>>> None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have >>>> demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them >>>> something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, it >>>> increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a rare >>>> place in a few years. >>>> >>>> And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation to >>>> contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that >>>> non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had >>>> to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a >>>> couple extra months waiting for the confirmation? >>>> >>>> 73, Zack W9SZ >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum <d...@aurumtel.com> wrote: >>>>> Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? >>>>> >>>>> Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major >>>>> DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 >>>>> months). >>>>> Most foundations require that in return for funding. >>>>> >>>>> Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not >>>>> translate >>>>> into extortion for those who opt out of supporting dxpeditions and >>>>> wait for >>>>> the slow method. >>>>> >>>>> 73 >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> N1DG >>>>> >>>>> At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote: >>>>>> Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion >>>>>> in the >>>>>> true sense of the term >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPod >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, "Ron Notarius W3WN" <wn3...@verizon.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lou, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once again, context is important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, >>>>>>> but it >>>>>>> was not the main focus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a >>>>>>> vacation to >>>>>>> the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my >>>>>>> vacation >>>>>>> costs from those who worked me, either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But -- that's not what the main focus here is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker & >>>>>>> Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat >>>>>>> chargers, food & fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of >>>>>>> US$500,000. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to >>>>>>> continue to >>>>>>> fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare >>>>>>> will be >>>>>>> off the air for decades to come. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an >>>>>>> appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I >>>>>>> heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum >>>>>>> amount >>>>>>> that you should include along with your QSL request. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX >>>>>>> associations, >>>>>>> societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those >>>>>>> organizations, >>>>>>> and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare >>>>>>> operations. >>>>>>> Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect >>>>>>> others to >>>>>>> go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill >>>>>>> of a >>>>>>> pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the >>>>>>> operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the >>>>>>> thrill or >>>>>>> not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 73 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM >>>>>>> To: li...@w2irt.net >>>>>>> Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -pjd is making a valid point, but......... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the >>>>>>> thrill of >>>>>>> being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or >>>>>>> two???????. >>>>>>> If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not >>>>>>> compute my >>>>>>> cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going...... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my 2cents worth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lou KE1F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: >>>>>>>> Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze >>>>>>>> Don's >>>>>>>> PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. >>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>> two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO >>>>>>>> incurred >>>>>>>> by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some >>>>>>>> cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over >>>>>>>> $5.00 USD >>>>>>>> PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in >>>>>>>> the $3 >>>>>>>> range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and >>>>>>>> nothing more >>>>>>>> are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not >>>>>>>> sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can >>>>>>>> see it >>>>>>>> if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not >>>>>>>> right if >>>>>>>> you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE >>>>>>>> SPENT >>>>>>>> to bring you the chance. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more >>>>>>>> readily >>>>>>>> willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's >>>>>>>> presentation >>>>>>>> but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was >>>>>>>> infinitesimally >>>>>>>> small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over >>>>>>>> 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory >>>>>>>> serves--Don, >>>>>>>> if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a >>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>> abacus. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and >>>>>>>> outright >>>>>>>> selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss >>>>>>>> something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a >>>>>>>> great >>>>>>>> gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to >>>>>>>> commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over >>>>>>>> the top >>>>>>>> and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of >>>>>>>> times a >>>>>>>> year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and >>>>>>>> modes, >>>>>>>> then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should >>>>>>>> reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll >>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>> SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are >>>>>>>> nominally >>>>>>>> the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought "gee, >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> been a couple of years since I worked<entity> on<band>." But if >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned >>>>>>>> straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if >>>>>>>> money's >>>>>>>> not as big an issue as it is now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - pjd >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan >>>>>>>> Jairam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver >>>>>>>> their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit >>>>>>>> someone's >>>>>>>> definition of "ham spirit" but I also understand that without the >>>>>>>> donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just >>>>>>>> how it >>>>>>>> is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, >>>>>>>> just so >>>>>>>> you can get a QSO in the log. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ryan, N2RJ >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to >>>> >>>> imail...@njdxa.org >>>> In the message body put either >>>> unsubscribe dx-chat >>>> >>>> or >>>> subscribe dx-chat >>>> >>>> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to >>> >>> imail...@njdxa.org >>> In the message body put either >>> unsubscribe dx-chat >>> >>> or >>> subscribe dx-chat >>> >>> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org -----------------------------------------------------------
