On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote:
>
However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL
cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to
abide by those terms.
Absolutely not! No operator has a right to discriminate in his QSL
policy or hold the QSL "hostage" in return for a "contribution" in
excess of the cost of mailing that QSL. To do so is de facto grounds
for disqualification under DXCC Rules (12 d):
d) Blatant inequities in confirmation (QSL) procedures. Continued
refusal to issue QSLs under certain circumstances may lead to
disqualification.
Any large DXpedition can - and should - seek individual contributions
before the operation. I would argue that they have a right to cancel
an operation if the support goals have not been met. However, the
policy of not uploading logs to LotW for six months or a year after
a DXPedition, not sending bureau QSLs for six months to a year after
a DXPedition and policies of not mailing QSLs to non-contributors until
after the end of the calendar year should be loudly and roundly denounced.
Given the ease of uploading QSOs to LotW - after all it is no more
difficult in uploading the raw logs to ClubLog daily which has become
standard practice for most major DXpeditions - there is *no* valid
reason for not uploading the raw logs immediately after the operation
if not daily during the operation.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote:
I'm thinking we all can make the choices we want to make. In terms of
DXpeditions costing a lot of money, if you can't take the heat, stay out
of the kitchen?????? However, any operator has the right to set his own
rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether
we want to abide by those terms. Let's call it free enterprise. We're
beginning to sound like........I won't say it here.
Steve, N4JQQ
Zack Widup wrote:
First off, great presentation Don!
I thought it gave a great perspective of what these "icebreaker"
DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for
them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of the
cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in a
DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. They
put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally financially,
hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some didn't - they
have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I guess. And our
loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another DXpedition.
I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of
the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded exorbitant
to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee to get your
equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position thousands of
miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable and unable to
speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate with those
people.
If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it
seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can.
Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps.
None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have
demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them
something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, it
increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a rare
place in a few years.
And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation to
contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that
non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had
to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a
couple extra months waiting for the confirmation?
73, Zack W9SZ
On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum <d...@aurumtel.com> wrote:
Who is demanding any fees for a QSL?
Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major
DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 months).
Most foundations require that in return for funding.
Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not
translate
into extortion for those who opt out of supporting dxpeditions and
wait for
the slow method.
73
Don
N1DG
At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote:
Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion in the
true sense of the term
Sent from my iPod
On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, "Ron Notarius W3WN" <wn3...@verizon.net>
wrote:
Lou,
Once again, context is important.
Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that
might
cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it
was not the main focus.
And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a vacation to
the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not
going
to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my
vacation
costs from those who worked me, either.
But -- that's not what the main focus here is.
You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker &
Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat
chargers, food & fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of
US$500,000.
Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was
that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to
continue to
fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare
will be
off the air for decades to come.
The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an
appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I
heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum
amount
that you should include along with your QSL request.
Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX
associations,
societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those
organizations,
and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations.
Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either.
The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect
others to
go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a
pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the
operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the
thrill or
not.
73
-----Original Message-----
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM
To: li...@w2irt.net
Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
-pjd is making a valid point, but.........
On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the
thrill of
being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???????.
If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my
cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going......
Just my 2cents worth
Lou KE1F
On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote:
Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze
Don's
PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site.
There are
two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO
incurred
by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some
cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD
PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3
range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and
nothing more
are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not
sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can
see it
if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out
the
LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not
right if
you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you
that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE
SPENT
to bring you the chance.
The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily
willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than
other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's
presentation
but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was
infinitesimally
small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over
20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory
serves--Don,
if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large
abacus.
Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright
selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss
something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a
great
gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to
commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over
the top
and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe.
If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of
times a
year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes,
then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should
reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer.
Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll
send an
SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally
the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought "gee, it's
been a couple of years since I worked<entity> on<band>." But if it's
something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned
straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if
money's
not as big an issue as it is now.
- pjd
-----Original Message-----
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan
Jairam
I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver
their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's
definition of "ham spirit" but I also understand that without the
donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it
is.
Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb,
just so
you can get a QSO in the log.
Ryan, N2RJ
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