On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> The answer to this question is YES I would still love them - In my book - any
> love is good love!
Yeah!
AND I never usually do things by the book - I am
> extremely liberal and open-minded and open-hearted - I do not feel that I
> would have to relinquish my own Christian spiritual beliefs and I would hope
> that my children wouldn't either. As for the Holy Book - never read it - was
> taught about it through my upbringing. What I like about Christianity is the
> sacraments (outwords signs to God/The Creator that we believe!) We may not
> have proof - but we believe!
Well, I think that there is a huge mass of "Christians" out there who use
the Bible and what the Churches say to be the only truth they need. I
certainly acquiese that true spiritual agency can be found through the
Christian paradigm if one looks hard enough and really really tries, but I
think it's pretty hard for a heck of a lot of them to go past what they
are taught, and that is a lot of hatred: Hatred of the body, hatred of
earthlyness, hatred of sexuality, hatred of men.... this hatred is
espoused in one way or another by most of these "churches" and if you're
going to call yourself a Christian, you have to be aware of that, and look
at it and maybe you can even help change it by subverting it from within.
I think that would be fabulous....
>.... Most pagans were once Christians who > were taught to only to fear
and obey God -
I know a lot of "pagans" who were raised that way by their parents.
> what about teachings about Jesus, > about trust,
discipline, love and honor, salvation - anything?
Growing up Catholic, I was taught a lot of RULES of conduct... who I had
to be and how I had to be and what I had to do to gain the "forgiveness"
of "sins" which are acts deemed inappropriate by a bunch of male religious
zealots who ASSIMILATED the Goddess into their religion under the name
Queen of Heaven... the Queen of Heaven that is depicted in Catholic art is
definitely the Queen of Heaven... the Goddess. She stands on the sliver
moon of heaven... the same sliver that druidic priestesses tatooed or
painted on their foreheads... Mary is but one face of the Goddess and
Jesus but one face of the God. The story of Jesus and Mary fits well with
many pre-Christian European "pagan" belief systems which are seasonal.
Every year the God is born of the Goddess, and every year the God
impregnates the Goddess again before his eventual demise and rebirth.
"Paganism" is a belief system which respects and works with the cycles of
the earth instead of working against them to dominate them as all
patriarchal dualistic systems do... including what is typically referred
to as "christianity" which all too often has nothing to do with Jesus,
forgiveness or the Queen of Heaven.
> Why were all > of you not taught that being Christian can bring joy and
> light into your > worlds not more darkness?
Because that's what churches teach.
>Or was that something that was just reserved for white straight men who
obeyed? >
yes.
> Paisain, I do not want to start discussing Christianity on this
listserv > indepth because there are many misunderstanding that Pagans
refuse to see -
Why not? Any eco-feminist ethic that seeks to rectify the damage done by
patriarchy MUST examine thoroughly the roots and causes of our current
predicament in order to foster a wholistic healing of our biosphere.
Treating symptoms will not cure the disease.
> you all seem to have your minds made up - regarding past
mistakes by > Christians (other then myself) please learn to forgive (it
has a great power > to HEAL) pagan beliefs work you - Christianity works
for me - lets leave it > at that.
Sorry, can't leave it. Please don't pigeonhole us. I identify as a pagan
because I honor the earth, dance to drums to make it rain, and wish for
the subversion and transmutation of our current global eco-crisis into
something beautiful, and for a whole host of other reasons...
and identifying as such HARDLY prevents me from praying to Jesus, having
an active relationship with the "holy spirit" and repeating my own version
of the Hail Mary so much that it is an imprint in my personality. Don't
pigeonhole me and say I hate God. The Goddess is God and vice-versa and
we are all truly one.
> > Heres a little something about my
Christianity: I am awed by the mystery of > the holy spirit of creation -
God is Cool to me!
To me too, but not Yahweh, not the Old Testament, and not religion.
I am blessed with faith > that this will all have a
final answer someday - love eternal - In the Omega > will be the final
piece of the puzzle. I am on this journey of life for a > reason. I am a
story within a story (the grand epoch)! I have my place and I > may even
have a mission. Now, I have discussed that there is a femme divine in >
Christianity - Amazing - I could live to be 36 and not know that Mary -
Mother > of Jesus - is the Queen of Heaven and EARTH- the femme Divine!
She was given > this crown a long time ago
yeah, but who "gave" it to her? Some SKY GOD MAN DOMINATOR? She doesn't
need to receive the crown from without...
and yet I was raised to believe
(probably not > intentionally, but that no additional efforts were made to
reveal this in > anyway, shape or form by the males in power in the
churches-something I hope > to help remedy) that she was just only Queen
of Heaven? - only honorable > mention of her now and again - not enough to
write home about - now I see > things more holisticly - She completes the
picture for me as the feminine face > of creation - she is Queen of Heaven
and Earth - mother of all living things - > the cause of my salvation - is
it possible that when you pray/meditate and as > mentioned previously the
Goddess speaks to you in nature - that it is the same > spirit - her
mother herself?
Of course.
> How can any of us say without a question of a > doubt
that we are sole heirs to the truth?
i don't know any pagans that say this. I know Baptists, Catholics,
Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, and scientists who all say this... who
throw it in our faces and who KILL people, entire nations even, because
their truth differs from the rest. Don't you know how many people have
been tortured, raped, killed at the hands of people espousing a
"Christian" identity? Didn't they, and DON'T THEY think their truth is
the only truth?
> Keep seeking maybe we shall find >
the whole truth! It is possible that we are discussing the same spirits
in > different texts?
Of course. They are all different faces of each other. The same life
force that is the source of all life runs through us all... plant, animal,
human, planet... we are all sustained by the same force but we
conceptualize it differently. And too many have been duped to believe
that it's capitalizm and money.
> You say that the male/female spirits in pagan
beliefs > complete the picture for you - Well Jesus(male savior/God/king)
Mary (female > source of salvation/queen) Holy Spirit work together for
Christian salvation > (Him/Her - they together work to help save us and
they can help us all heal > the misunderstandings and mistakes of the past
- if we just let them in our > hearts -let go and trust!
And so can all the Gods and Goddesses which are just projections of human
identity onto the spiritual canvas in order to help our poor
third-dimensional brains understand things. And so can a belief in
nothing. Nothingness. That's what Zen Buddhism is all about. You can
learn so much about your own beliefs by learning about the beliefs of
others... I see you reaching out to do that, Angela. Keep it up! I
encourage you to learn, learn, learn about this world so we can change
it...
paisain
> > Love, >
Angela > > > > I commend your effort to find and heal the > feminine face
of creation from within christianity. I think it's GREAT... > it's a huge
task though... cause if the feminine is truly to be revered > within that
structure, the book has got to go. > >
