Re: Earth as Mother/Spirituality

[Dancing Hummingbird /aka Joy Williams]

On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Bertina Miller wrote:

> 
> I must respectfully disagree with you. To me and others who are not 
> spiritualists do not have to be spiritually connected to anything to have 
> a connection to all living things including the Earth. The concept of the 
> Earth as a living thing is fine, but I do draw a line as to what sort of 
> living thing it is. 

First point, I would not call us "spiritualists".  We are people who are
spiritual, but that word, though accurate has another connotation, which
is like a medium, or an occultist.  Though technically I could be regarded
as an occultist, because I occasionally read the Tarot deck, that in no
way begins to describe what I am.  I am an eco-feminist eclectic
Neo-Pagan, a Witch, a magick user, a consciousness changer.  I think,
though you can shoot me if I am wrong, Coyote1, that Coyote is a Native
American, but I am certain there is much more that she is.  For both of
us, our spirtuality is an inherent part of everything we do, there is no
separation. 

Err, what is the difference between living things?  Is one sort any more 
or less alive or more or less important?  I don't think that anyone here 
who is a spiritual person sees one thing as more or less sacred or alive 
than anything else.

> 
> As I have said before, though in angry tones, is that just because one is 
> not spriritual does not make one uncaring of ecofeminism. It doesnt even 
> mean I am only using partriarchal language or that its intrinsic to me 
> because I sound like I have only one-sided viewpoints.

Bertina, this is awfully defensive sounding.  I don't think that anyone is
accusing you of being uncaring of ecofeminism.  What I think that many of
us are trying to say here is that the reason that so many people are
messed up and continue to mess up the Earth is because the religion of
patriarchy has alienated them from the Earth.  And that for many of us, to
heal we need our spirituality and that the answer lies in finding it with
the Earth.  If you don't resonate with that fine!!!  At least you are
aware that it is an option!  A lot of folks aren't

> 
> People who want to be seperatist are, doesnt matter of ones viewpoints. 
> Everyone has differing viewpoints, I do not believe there is a single 
> person who can fully agree with another person on all the issues.
> 
> What seperates people is the way one chooses to live and the way one 
> chooses to interact with others. Saying that people are desecrating our 
> Mother because people are in denial of the spiritual is the same as all 
> the Christian Coalition going around saying that the only way crime, 
> violence, and teen pregnancy can be slowed is through family values.
> 
> I find such opinions ludicrous and wrong. It is definitly seperatist in 
> viewpoint and does not welcome healthy relations.
> 

I find the above comparison "ludicrous and wrong".  It is not the same
thing!  And I also think that your language here is really not kind nor
does it encourage discourse. And it is not separatist.  It is a valid
evalution for many of us of the reason that many people feel alienated
from the Earth.  When you are told continually in Church that the Earth is
something that you are supposed to dominate and conquer, then you are
being told to deny the spirit of the land and it's sacredness.  That is a
denial of the Mother, a denial of her sacredness. This leads to the 
perverted thinking of the big corporations and others.  That the land is 
nothing but resources to exploit.  It is *one* of the root problems of the 
pathology of society.

> I think people wanting to change other peoples opinions on such things 
> are treading on dangerous ground.Whether its right or wrong is debatable 
> and very relative.
> 
but aren't you attempting to change other people's opinions by making 
such a damning and nasty comparison?  Don't you see that you are trying 
to paint people like Coyote and I and others as extremist as the 
Christian Coalition?  That's a real slap in the face, Bertina, and very 
unfair.  Though I am an extremist, I AM a radical, and not at all ashamed 
of it, the comparison to the CC was unkind and not relavent.

> I believe in relativism and believe seperatist talk is exclusionary and 
> accomplishes little.
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> Bertina Miller
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Coyote1 wrote:
> 
> > Faith and Rose and whoever else -
> > 
> > I agree wholeheartedly with you on the issue of denial of the spiritual 
> > as being a root of the desecration of our Mother.  This concept is 
> > something we must re-learn and resurrect from our group memory if the 
> > Earth is to continue to be habitable.  Traditional peoples everywhere 
> > (yes, your ancestors and mine and all our relations) live(d) by this 
> > concept, and the wisdom (a female concept in the Hebrew Bible and 
> > elsewhere) is out there for us to grasp - look back far enough and your 
> > own ancestors can give it to you.
> > 
> > What is inherent in these ancient wisdom traditions is a concept of 
> > balance that does separate male and female.  We are separate, but it is 
> > only recently in the history of the world that that separateness 
> > contained a value judgement - about the time it became HISstory.  An 
> > analogy I like to use is the nickel cad battery - it has positive and 
> > negative poles, but that doesn't carry a value judgement, since nothing 
> > would run without both poles!
> > 
> > As I see it, we must refuse to accept the patriarchally imposed value 
> > judgements and their attendant heirarchies and reach out to people to 
> > show them that those attitudes don't work, haven't worked and will not 
> > work. What I have found works best is always to call people on it when 
> > they say things that reflect patriarchal (non)thinking.  I do it gently, 
> > and in good humor and usually it works.
> > 
> > I have a tendency to get long winded as you may guess, I'll leave it here 
> > and jump in again later in the discussion.
> > 
> > Jacque
> > J. Higgins-Rosebrook
> > NOAA/NWS Stampede Pass
> > P.O.Box 128
> > Easton, WA 98925  USA
> > (360)886-1531
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 23 18:30:59 MST 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:30:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Jayne S Docherty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Coyote1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Earth as Mother/
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Coyote1 wrote:

> You know, E as M works for me and for most of the women I know.  My 
> eldest daughter though is a high school science teacher and accepts no 
> concept of deity.  She does, however espouse the Gaia principle.  
> Consequently, her (and her husband's) behavior toward the earth is just 
> the same as mine.  Whatever metaphor one uses that works to frame one's 
> thinking of oneself as in a direct cause/effect relationship with this 
> tiny spaceship we're all hurtling through eternity on, I say use it.

YES, YES, YES!  And the Gaia "principle" *rests on* a METAPHOR --The 
earth is a living organism!!!!  My point exactly!!!!!

Of course, the similarities between the Gaia principle and Earth is 
Mother are pretty obvious.  But, there are -- IMHO -- other "scientific" 
metaphors which are paralelled by other "spiritual" metaphors and lead to 
similar actions....

For example, "People are stewards of the earth" -- a metaphor drawn from 
the Judeo-Christian religious tradition and gaining new "popularity" 
today must have a non-religious parallel metaphor which leads to 
"sustainable environmental practices".  In fact, I have actually seen the 
"stewardship metaphor" taken completely out of its original religious 
setting and used as it stands in "secular" environmental literature.  The 
interesting thing there is that stewardship in its *original* context was 
related to the notion of a royal steward who was left in charge of the 
kingdom and would have to answer to the king upon his return.  In its 
secularized setting, there seems to be a missing piece...  To whom must 
the "stewards" answer for their practices in relation to the 
environment?  Perhaps future generations?

God/ess, I love this metaphor stuff! :-)  Let's just hope that I *still* 
love it by the time I finish this degree/dissertation!

Jayne
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 23 18:33:45 MST 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:32:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Dancing Hummingbird /aka Joy Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Jayne's Mega-reply to Many Posts!
To: Jayne S Docherty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Well, just speaking for myself, when i refer to "Mother Earth" this is 
not metaphoric.  I am refering to something which I regard as a living, 
breathing, reproducing organism which is the MOther of us all.  I'm 
refering to a being with a personality, a psyche, an identity which right 
now is pretty messed up, because of what has been done to Her.

Joy Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scion in the Church of All Worlds
"The Garrulous Grok Flok"
Thou Art Goddess!