Carolyn, I am the person who mentioned children being forbidden on field trips. I provided that information in response to an explicit question. The policy has nothing to do with whether or not the person who wished to take a child on a field trip was a woman or a man. No parent could take a child on a class field trip that I sponsored or supervised. It is as simple as we are going on the field trip to do work. We do not have time to properly supervise a child. And it was in keeping with a university policy, but a policy that I supported.
Beyond that, university insurance did not extend to anyone not a university employee and not enrolled in a course. I am not going to assume liability for any person on a field trip without the university having my back. It happens that of the various persons who asked me over the years about taking a child, there were as many men as women. Most of them wanted to take the child to expose the child to the environment we were investigating. There is nothing in any posts I've seen with one exception that makes any assumption about whether a woman is able to make reasonable decisions concerning her family. I have seen some posts (and I provided a similar perspective) suggesting that taking an infant into such a harsh environment, and with the parent focusing on other activities as would usually be necessary when working in the field, might not be the best thing to do. I wish I had had broader, and more cautionary advice concerning a good many things I did over the years. I might have searched for better alternatives. I did see one post where the author said that poor planning, getting pregnant at an inopportune time, or something like that was perhaps at fault, and that people are responsible not to let their personal life interfere with obligations to a lab or something of that nature. I responded to that post, rather harshly, that the poster's sexism seemed to be showing, and that perhaps he wanted only a June Cleaver model of parenthood to prevail. I don't know whether the post was dropped by the moderator for being overly critical of another poster. But, I've said it again here, and we'll see. David McNeely ---- Carolyn Nersesian <carolyn.nerses...@sydney.edu.au> wrote: > I could be way off-base here, but it seems like the most prevalent > undercurrent in this thread is the implicit assumption that Simone or any > woman (given that this issue clearly affects woman more than men) is not > capable of making a well-informed and responsible decision regarding their > family. Over and over again I see this stream of father-knows-best > assumptions - from both men and woman - about what is appropriate and what is > not appropriate (with some exceptions of course). From assumptions of poor > planning, the child is too young, the situation is too dangerous, all the way > to forbidding children from be allowed on field trips. It is unfortunate that woman have not been afforded the same luxury as men have had in the recent past to be awarded their own personal child care service through marriage. Yet they are expected to function as though this hasn't been a predominate career disadvantage or that their careers are not assessed against a bar that clearly favors a situation they don't have access too. It doesn't look like that kind of advantage is going to be offered to woman anytime soon, so perhaps it's time to re-think the entire underlying dynamic driving the topic. Especially because this issue seems to be framed within the context of an entitlement that never existed for woman and is probably not going to exist much longer for men. ________________________________________ From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] on behalf of David L. McNeely [mcnee...@cox.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:08 AM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant? I originally responded only to Simone personally. But, I now see a need for wider discussion. I agree with Hal Caswell and others who have said that child safety is paramount. If at all possible, another approach should be considered. Hal, in answer to your query: In forty years of teaching, I had a standing policy, supported by the institutions I worked with, that children were not allowed on field trips or in laboratories. The fact that the university's insurance stated explicitly that its coverage only extended to such personnel made my refusal to allow children a little easier, but in reality, that was a convenient excuse for my position. In all that time, I only had 4 students who questioned the policy, and each of those four eventually recognized the basis, and found other ways to participate in the field trips. Once, two parents who were in different sections of the same ecology course worked out an arrangement whereby they traded child care duties. All this is easier in institutions that have on campus child care facilities. While Dad goes to school, junior can too. I am a parent and now a grandparent. I understand the needs that prompt folks to want to have their children with them. But I also understand the concerns for child health and safety. Taking a hike or a camping trip is quite different from working in the field (though I have had colleagues over the years who sometimes did not understand that). And I must acknowledge that as my daughter grew older I did take her into the field with me. When I first started doing so, at least I was accompanied by her mother, who could devote more time to supervising her than I could. She is now an ecologist, a faculty member, and a mother. She has not taken her child into the field for work, but I expect she will when he grows older and more self sufficient if she is engaged in activities where she can provide adequate supervision, or if the child's father is able to be there and assist. I also remember well the first overnight backpacking we did with her, when she was two. I carried my daughter and a one quarter share of our equipment and supplies. My wife, my daughter's mother, carried everything else. We didn't do another with her until she was five, and we backpacked on trails where she could walk on her own. Sometimes we simply have to make compromises that are not our first choice in order to fulfill all our responsibilities in life successfully. David McNeely ---- Hal Caswell <hcasw...@whoi.edu> wrote: > Dear People, > > This discussion is all very inspiring, but much of it misses the > point[s]. While Simone didn't say exactly what mountains she is working > in, I assumed from her location that she was speaking of the White > Mountains in New Hampshire. I have some experience with those mountains, > and they are notorious for difficult terrain, uncertain footing, and > unpredictable weather in every month of the year. Especially in the > alpine zone (or to get to the alpine zone), where Simone says she > works. Hence my advice (nothing I have heard here has changed that) > that a 3-month old infant is too young. The happy stories of taking > young children "for a hike" may or may not be relevant to Simone's > question, depending on what kind of a hike you are speaking of. > > Also not relevant are the discussions of the [very great] rewards of > sharing one's scientific activities with one's children and the > responses they can give. > > Also very much not relevant are the invocations of how our ancestors > lived, and gave birth, and raised children in the wild, unless you want > to also bring into the discussion the changes over time in infant > mortality rates. > > Child's safety trumps all else. > > I would be very much interested in hearing from other faculty about how > they deal with the safety and liability issues arising from taking > children in the field, in the care of students under their supervision. > I suspect that safety concerns in places like chemistry labs, would > immediately rule out the presence of small children there, but field > work may (sometimes) invoke different images. > > (Parenthetically, I don't usually supervise students doing field work, > so the issue hasn't come up for me. Most of the students I know who do > field work do so on oceanographic research vessels, where children are > definitely not going to be taken along.) > > So, to faculty, how do you deal with student safety while working in the > field? > > Hal Caswell > > Senior Scientist > > Biology Department MS-34 > Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution > Woods Hole MA 02543 > USA > > > > > On 4/9/12 11:16 AM, Sarah Jack Hinners wrote: > > OK, back to Simone's original question.... I didn't actually take my babies > > into the field with me, but I took my firstborn on his first hike when he > > was 13 days old and many many times thereafter. > > 1. Front carriers: Front carriers allow you to take a baby pretty much > > anywhere, snug, with their head supported. The carrier I had (I think it > > was a Baby Bjorn) had a pretty thick layer of padding between me and the > > baby, so I can't imagine him ever getting wet from my sweat, but he was > > close and small enough that I could zip my jacket (a size too big for just > > me) around us both if it started to rain. On longer hikes, I carried a > > backpack as well, with diapers, blankets, etc. So you've got a baby on the > > front and backpack for gear on the back. Not super-fun, but doable if > > you're determined. > > 2. The question that I'm stuck on is what to do with baby once you're up > > there. If it's cold and wet, you're going to want to keep her on you, but > > can you do your field work that way? I'm imagining one of those little > > portable baby shelters and lots of blankets but that 's no good if it's > > windy... > > 3. Once baby is bigger (at least 6 months and sitting up on her own) you > > can switch to a baby backpack, which can carry gear and baby. Ours is a > > German brand (Dieter or something). Definitely try on lots of backpacks > > because some are NOT comfortable, and what's comfortable for one person may > > be torture for another. I also know lots of people with Kelty backpacks > > too, but I never found them comfortable. By that age, you'll have to look > > out for a small mobile person when you're up there doing your field work > > and you will get less done. > > 4. Diapers: I used cloth and I always just carried a couple of big ziplock > > bags in my backpack for the dirties and wipes. I think disposable would be > > better in your case, as they will wick the moisture away from baby's skin > > better. > > 5. Keeping warm and dry: lots of changes of clothes. Fortunately, you can > > carry about 3 changes of clothes for a baby that size in a space about the > > size of a grapefruit. I wouldn't use wool - it will itch a baby's skin. But > > there's lots of cozy fleece baby clothes out there. And a blanket for if > > she's really cold. > > I'd like to support Dave's (I think) comment here - for ALL of our > > evolutionary history, women have had to give birth and then get up and keep > > going . The best place for a small baby to be is close to her mother. If > > her mother happens to be climbing mountains, baby doesn't care. She's warm, > > she's got mom close, and the milk is right there. The bigger the baby gets, > > the harder it is to get things done - small babies can be toted pretty much > > anywhere and just sleep through it. And being physically active 3 months > > after giving birth is how you get back into shape, as long as you listen to > > your body and take it slow. (Taking it slow will reduce the sweating issue > > as well.) > > Simone, I wish you luck. I agree with those who say don't let people > > pressure you into doing field work if you 're not ready, but if it's what > > you want, you'll find a way. > > Sarah > > > > Sarah Jack Hinners, PhD > > Senior Research Analyst > > Metropolitan Research Center > > College of Architecture and Planning > > University of Utah > > 375 S 1530 E rm 226 > > Salt Lake City, UT 84112 > > (801)5851026 > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Liz Pryde<elizabethpr...@gmail.com> > > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012 10:19 PM > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant? > > > > Hi Simone, > > > > The choice here is yours but, you know, if you were able to wait even a few > > more months before taking the little one into the field it would be a > > better/easier scenario for all involved. The time goes by very very > > quickly. Perhaps this season, if you absolutely HAVE to collect your data, > > you could have a family member take care of junior, or put her in child > > care with bottles of formula/breastmilk. I'm not sure about the US, but > > child care in Australia has been fantastic for my little one (she's now 18 > > months) and very reasonably priced. > > > > Like I said, it's your decision, but it does 'seem' from the outside that > > it may be good for you to take a little more time thinking about where your > > priorities lie (I'm sorry if that's the wrong assumption). Again, I'm not > > sure about the situation in the US, but you really shouldn't feel pressured > > to get your work done at such extremes just to move forward in your career. > > I know there are a lot of older female scientists out there with these > > kinds of 'hard core' stories but most of them I find very unbalanced (with > > great careers) and with kids who have grown up with a fair bit of > > resentment (and other issues). > > > > It's really up to our generation of mothers (and fathers) to change this > > type of impossible and sub-standard expectation of parents. Who is > > expecting you to go out and do this work with a 3-month-old? i had to make > > a few small sideways shifts, but I have managed to find an exceptional lab > > who is at the cutting-edge of their field, yet because the lab is run by > > young-ish parents they have realistic expectations of their staff - and we > > produce excellent work. Is there no such support for you or for any > > colleagues you know? After all, it won't be long before you and your cohort > > will be the ones running labs and making the rules. > > > > Finally, have you thought about your physical health here? Weight bearing > > and hiking for long periods of time so soon after giving birth can leave > > you with incontinence/prolapse as young as 45 (if you had a natural birth > > and especially if you decide to have another child). And can compromise the > > repair of your abdominal muscles. Have a look at the stats for these types > > of complications. They have rapidly been on the increase in younger women > > since the Eigthies. > > > > Perhaps I am projecting my own experiences onto you here - and if so, just > > ignore the above. It may be that you feel that this is how you are happiest > > - and the pressure is coming from you. > > If so, I hope you can find a way to keep everyone happy and healthy (and > > dry) and I wish you lots of luck. > > > > All the best, > > Liz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Simone S. Whitecloud< > > simone.s.whitecl...@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > >> I'd love to pick up some pointers on how to bring my 3 month old into the > >> field. I work in the alpine zone, so cool temperatures, wind and rain are > >> the issue. Any favorite gear items you found helpful? I'm already finding > >> she is totally soaked by the time we get to the peak from my own sweat. > >> Know > >> where to buy wool onesies? Tips on packing out dirty diapers? > >> > >> Thanks for your input, > >> Simone Whitecloud > >> PhD Candidate, McPeek Lab > >> Dartmouth College > >> > > > > -- David McNeely -- David McNeely
