This is an ecology listserv with individuals from all sorts of cultural backgrounds and upbringings. None of us is perfect, and many of us only see things through our own set of spectacles.
Clara claims that some data support her suggestion. The appropriate response to this under a scientific forum is to: 1) request provision of that data. 2) provide alternative refuting data. 3) move further discussion off the listserv or to other forums that have more to do with the cultural underpinings of human behaviour and social justice. I posted an article on here about gender biases weeks ago, and it went pretty much ignored. I'm not sure what that means, maybe everyone has me filtered! :) (GOOD FOR THEM!). 4) start a discussion of the bigger issue (see below) without returning perceived attacks. Beyond that, there are all kinds of aspects of culture that garner respect and tolerance. I am not personally going to fling my values in the face of either side of this argument ON THIS FORUM (even though I have probably inappropriately done such dozens of times). Tolerance is not restricted to a person's own views, but to everyone's views. That means that we can discuss ecology and ecologically related topics with all people of all avenues. THis doesn't make Clara's statements right, nor does it make the respondent's views wrong. It also doesn't mean I agree with either, both or neither person. Can we just get along? I don't think personal attacks, deliberate or accidental, are needed on here. I'm sure Clara did not intend to offend anyone, likewise I'm sure the others did not enjoy being offended. Maybe you folks can come to some kind of understanding if you discuss it among yourselves. There is that possibility that you might learn something from Clara, and Clara might learn something from you if things are kept calm and nice. You might even uncover a collaborator or a friend where you thought you had an adversary or an opponent! All of us have misconceptions, all of us can misinterpret, and plenty of us are misinformed. It is better to discuss than argue. As for filtering, it works for the occasional person who just miffs you off continuously. But, in practice it takes a lot away from the discussions on this listserv. Even the most irritating sometimes have something worthwhile to contribute. Malcolm On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Chris Black <[email protected]> wrote: > Julian, > I agree that filtering is a great way to make life better, but in this case I > think you're shutting down a worthwhile conversation. Calling out bad > behavior is how groups enforce norms, and I sure hope Ecolog has a norm > against casual exclusionary remarks. > > Chandreyee, thanks for speaking up. I'm not female and I don't know if 30 > counts as young around here, but Clara's remarks made me uncomfortable as > well. That's not what I came for and if we're supposed to ignore it, whether > technologically or by gritting our teeth, then there is no norm against it > and we've created an exclusionary environment. > > --Chris > > > On Feb 17, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Julian Olden <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Chandreyee, >> >> Here's a suggestion if you want to filter out certain threads or >> individuals from ECOLOG-L. >> >> Use the filter function on your e-mail program to re-route those threads >> or messages from particular individuals automatically to the trash folder. >> Next, never open your trash folder. Problem solved! This way you get the >> perks of ECOLOG (i.e., what it was designed for) without the headache. >> >> Cheers, >> Julian >> >> >> --- >> Julian D. Olden >> Freshwater Ecology & Conservation Lab >> School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences >> University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 >> e: [email protected], t: (206) 616-3112 <tel:%28206%29%20616-3112> >> w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ >> skype: goldenolden >> >> "The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown >> aside, for it had a new story to tell every day." ‹ Mark Twain >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2/17/13 3:00 PM, "Chandreyee Mitra" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Are we just allowed to casually insult half the populace in a post here? >>> In >>> Clara's 7th, very well punctuated point, she wrote: >>> >>> "7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, >>> especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others >>> don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly >>> generalist-oriented..." >>> >>> If this is so, I am curious as to what other groups are open to ridicule? >>> Young - check. Female - check. >>> >>> cheers >>> Chandreyee >>> (a young(ish) female) >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:03 PM, malcolm McCallum < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Clara, I agree. >>>> >>>> To be marketable in the workplace you must have skills that are in >>>> demand in the workplace. Its that simple. Too many students graduate >>>> without marketable skills. >>>> Marketability for grad school does not equal marketability for a job >>>> out of the BS. >>>> You want to get a job in ecological field? >>>> Here are the skills I recommend: >>>> 1. GIS >>>> 2. statistics >>>> 3. public administration >>>> 4. env/wildlife/fisheries policy & law >>>> 5. Any and all instrumentation involving chemistry, molecular biology >>>> and >>>> micro. >>>> >>>> Why? >>>> Everything uses GIS today. >>>> Statistics are just plain required. >>>> If you are working in the public sector, PA will prepare you for what >>>> you actually do most of the time...paperwork. >>>> policy and law is mostly what you will be doing paperwork on (permits >>>> and permitting issues!) >>>> instrumentation may pick you up a research tech post. >>>> >>>> Also, if you go into the private sector, every one of those areas is >>>> highly marketable. >>>> If you have none of them, you are going to have a rougher time. >>>> Again, this is coming out of a BS. >>>> >>>> Ideally, you better have Wildlife + Wildlife Techniques if going into >>>> a wildlife field or Fisheries + fisheries techniques if going into a >>>> fish field. You might check the respective certification programs. >>>> Anything ecotox will help too. >>>> >>>> Malcolm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Clara B. Jones <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> 1. ...assuming that your summary is an accurate reflection of the >>>> *CB*article... >>>>> 2. ...i am shocked that there is no mention of actual skills...most of >>>> the >>>>> traits you mention might be categorized as "intangible"...you need >>>> these >>>>> skills to be a car salesman...not to impugn car sales-persons... >>>>> 3. ...IMO, an applicant has a better edge if s/he brings something >>>>> transferrable [marketable!] to the table that no-one else brings to >>>> the >>>>> table... >>>>> 4. ...often this "something" is one or more quantitative skill... >>>>> 5. ...or, skill in a fundamental or "hot" area of research w long-term >>>>> potential... >>>>> 6. ...or, a grant... >>>>> 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many >>>> young, >>>>> especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that >>>> others >>>>> don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is >>>> mostly >>>>> generalist-oriented... >>>>> 8. ...early-career applicants need to bring something "with >>>> legs"...as my >>>>> Grandmother Jackson used to say...in other words, bring something to >>>> the >>>>> table that can go somewhere [that the department and the >>>> college/university >>>>> and the field want to go]... >>>>> 9. ...clara b. jones >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Helen Bothwell >>>> <[email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In a recent publication in Conservation Biology, Blickley et al. >>>> (2012) >>>>>> analayzed what skills are necessary for graduate students to be >>>>>> competitive in >>>>>> the job market. We discuss these in the Early Career Ecologists blog >>>> and >>>>>> hope >>>>>> that many of you will find this useful: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> http://earlycareerecologists.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/a-graduate-students >>>> - >>>>>> guide-to-necessary-skills-for-landing-a-job/< >>>> >>>> http://earlycareerecologists.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/a-graduate-students >>>> -guide-to-necessary-skills-for-landing-a-job/ >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Clara B. Jones >>>>> Director >>>>> Mammals and Phenogroups (MaPs) >>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/cbjones1943 >>>>> Cell: -828-279-4429 >>>>> Blog Profile: http://www.blogger.com/profile/09089578792549394529 >>>>> Brief CV: >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://vertebratesocialbehavior.blogspot.com/2012/10/clara-b-jones-brief- >>>> cv.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Where no estimate of error of any kind can be made, generalizations >>>> about >>>>> populations from sample data are worthless." Ferguson, 1959 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Malcolm L. McCallum >>>> Department of Molecular Biology and Biochemistry >>>> School of Biological Sciences >>>> University of Missouri at Kansas City >>>> >>>> Managing Editor, >>>> Herpetological Conservation and Biology >>>> >>>> "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" - >>>> Allan Nation >>>> >>>> 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert >>>> 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, >>>> and pollution. >>>> 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction >>>> MAY help restore populations. >>>> 2022: Soylent Green is People! >>>> >>>> The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) >>>> Wealth w/o work >>>> Pleasure w/o conscience >>>> Knowledge w/o character >>>> Commerce w/o morality >>>> Science w/o humanity >>>> Worship w/o sacrifice >>>> Politics w/o principle >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any >>>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may >>>> contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized >>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and >>>> destroy all copies of the original message. >>>> -- Malcolm L. McCallum Department of Molecular Biology and Biochemistry School of Biological Sciences University of Missouri at Kansas City Managing Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" - Allan Nation 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o sacrifice Politics w/o principle Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
