Hi Max, Clara and ECOLOG As a recently graduated MSc. student, I must say I agree with both Clara's original post and Max's response. I delayed responding as I didn't really want to wade into the forum dynamics on a non-technical topic, but also (now) would like to lend some support and feedback as I do think that Clara's comments held merit and were not (I presume, or taken by me) to be sexist.
If Clara's professional experience has been that graduate students in general and female graduate students typically (not universally) arrive without a unique contribution to the skill set of a lab, then that in and of itself is the observation and situation that requires addressing. As Max astutely points out, if this is true for female graduate students more often, then it could very much point out an opportunity for improvement in terms of mentorship, skill-building opportunities, available projects, etc. If you as a professional have not observed this to be the case, then perhaps all is well, at least in your field and in the field of graduate students your department attracts. If you as a graduate student, particularly a female one (as I am), feel that this is the case, it is your responsibility to ameliorate the situation and recognize where you OR past supervisors have fallen short of providing opportunities for you to grow professionally, academically, and personally within your field of interest. Mentoring can and often does fall short of the mark, but in the limited amount of time from undergraduate to professional working scientist, I don't see a lot of room for waxing victim over not having a valuable, marketable and unique set of skills to offer. If, as a male or female graduate student (or anyone for that matter) your CV doesn't now have that set of skills that allows you to compete at the level you wish to compete at, for the types of positions and opportunities you want to achieve, decide on what would make you stand out, and get to work. I don't really see the value in crying foul while ignoring the obvious merit of someone pointing out a potentially real and totally fixable situation. Now can we talk about real ecology again? Best regards (and feel free to add me to the blastable list :) ). Susan Cousineau *** Anecdotally, in my M.Sc. program and over 2 years in a group of 27 students from 18 different countries, I continually observed that it was "the boys" that would hotly pursue opportunities to take courses that would build their skills, further their research, or put them in contact with others in their field. Of the female students I can think of a few that really stand out as having pushed their research and skill-building efforts, but not many that pursued external courses and funding opportunities as energetically. Perhaps I've been both lucky *and* fortunate, but I have also specifically chosen supervisors -- from my bachelor work upwards -- that were willing to allow me to propose and work on my own projects. As an undergraduate, for instance, I rather presumptuously proposed a research project to a supervisor (professor that I knew reasonably well from doing well in the class, of 175+ students) that required four months of fieldwork, on my own, in Amazonian Peru. I can hardly imagine anyone else having accepted such a ludicrous proposition but can only imagine that my demonstrated previous experience (traveling), language skills, and a well-researched and -written proposal gave me a leg up on demonstrating I was serious. Since then I've pretty much only chosen to work with supervisors that expressly encourage me to develop my own question within the framework of their research (with the exception of my final MSc. thesis, which for funding reasons I was rushed into a position in a lab that provided great fieldwork experience but despite a lot of talk, almost no opportunity in reality to develop my own work). I find now that I continually get great feedback on my CV (even if I don't get the job), and have a good long list of skills (Python, R, ArcGIS, LaTeX; project management and supervisory/training, teaching) that I'm continually working on to get where I want to go for my future Ph.D. work. (FYI: Spatial patterning in ecosystems, in relation to soil microbiology and disease dynamics, particularly in relation to indigenous and permaculture agricultural systems; and regenerative agriculture in general). Just my $0.02 (or €0.015). On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Max Taub <[email protected]> wrote: > I feel for Clara Jones who is being blasted for sexism and I don't know > what else, for what was presumably intended as a helpful word to younger > aspiring scientists. > > Her point, as I saw it, was that too many young scientists develop only > the general, generic skills of the discipline, while what is marketable is > often very particular research skills. She suggests that this is more the > case with young female than with young male scientists. > > Nothing in that suggests negative attitudes about the capabilities of > young female scientists. It might suggest female scientists are (on > average) less well mentored, or that they are (on average) shunted into > less novel and exciting projects by grad school advisors. Or a host of > other possibilities. > > I see no reason to tear into someone for posting such perceptions, > > > Now you can blast me instead of her, > > Max Taub > > > > -- > Daniel Taub > Professor of Biology > Southwestern University > 1001 East University Ave > Georgetown TX 78626 USA > > Phone: 512 863-1583 > Fax: 512 863-1696 > [email protected] > -- “Eventually there was only one thing to do: screw up my courage, burn all the bridges behind me, and start a new life, no matter whither it might lead. Convinced that he who has not lived dangerously has never tasted the salt of life, one day I decided to take the plunge." -- Aimé Tschiffely, a Swiss emigrant to Argentina who rode 10 000 miles from Buenos Aires to Washington D.C. in 1925, on 15- and 16-year old Criollo horses Mancho and Gato (http://www.aimetschiffely.org/heroes1.htm). Erasmus Mundus Master Program in Evolution (MEME) 2012 University of Montpellier II, France University of Groningen, Netherlands BSc. Ecology Hon 1st, University of Calgary, Canada
