ITs virtually impossible to tell the sheep from teh goats. Possibly asking this would be the best indicator.
Ask the person offering the intern: 1. How many of your employees did an unpaid intern with your organization. -They should know this off the top of their head, and ask to meet those individuals when in an interview, or names and email addresses/phone numbers. Do you homework. You might be surprised how many have NEVER hired their own unpaid interns, and how few actually had any association with the organization prior. IF it is a clear gateway to working there, it may have more value than typical. Usually, unpaid interns are doing grunt work that requires no real skills or education. 2. I'm not sure that asking how many got jobs outside their institution upon leaving is all that important because the intern may or may not have contributed to that. Well, if they say none, I'ld only be concerned that they are obviously truthful! I can guarantee eventual employment of a cadre of students if I simply grab the best who would be employable w/o my help! (think about it). I guess my post is meant as a clear warning to those seeking interns. Yes, there probably are some that have value, but most IN MY EXPERIENCE are simply opportunities to get free labor. It is no big surprise that the most unpaid interns pop up during economic downturns and the fewest are advertised during times when money is more readily available. That can mean multiple things, but when the desperate for experience meet up with the dishonest or abusive it tends to have bad results for the desperate. M On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> wrote: > Ecolog: > > Either internships are taking advantage of students and interested "lay" > people or they are not. > > Either there are NGO's or "non-profits" out there that are largely in the > business of collecting money rather than doing serious science or there are > not. > > We can't name names because we could get sued for libel, but we can describe > what's going on without naming names, especially if we are classifying them > into types. > > Shall we try to do that so that students can have a prayer of separating the > sheep from the goats? > > WT > > PS: When I was a student, I had no other way to finance my education but to > work for a living. No student loans (thank goodness!), no scholarships (I > was taught not to take "charity"); just work and study with practically no > social life. > > When I was in a position to take interns, I found them to be of two types: > 1) "The starry-eyed dilettantes," as Abraham Maslow would say, whose > derrieres needed to be wiped for them, and 2) the hard-working and > dedicated, who needed little direction once the job to be done was clear. > The former took up more time and effort than they contributed; the latter > contributed to the work far in excess of the time it took to "supervise" > them. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "malcolm McCallum" > <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Careerships and Internships - scam or real thing? > > >> This is why its good to have people discuss these topics rather than >> just get a single opinion. My opinion is that there are better ways >> to personally grow, however, here we have David supporting them. >> >> In the end, the only person who can really determine whether it is >> what you want to do is the person who is thinking about doing it. >> >> The true value of a working listserv is discussion of even these most >> basic topics! >> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 11:06 AM, David M. Lawrence <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> I have to file a dissent with Dr. McCallum's opinion. Whether an unpaid >>> internship is worth it or not depends entirely on what measurement >>> endpoints >>> you choose to evaluate them with. If you evaluate their worth solely >>> from a >>> human resources department angle, his argument may make sense. But if >>> you >>> evaluate their worth from other measures -- such as personal growth -- >>> you >>> might come to a very different conclusion. >>> >>> I did a lot of what you might call "unpaid internships" when I was an >>> undergrad (I called it volunteering). I have to say, those nights >>> sitting >>> in the rain dozing off over a physiology book between runs to check >>> pitfall >>> traps for salamanders and other creatures were some of the most valuable >>> fieldwork experiences I have had. (And I have had some great ones over >>> the >>> years.) >>> >>> Later, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> On 8/16/2013 11:08 AM, malcolm McCallum wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Some unpaid internships are worthy of your time. Most will not get >>>> you any kind of experience of worth. Why? Because quality costs >>>> money, and if you need quality you will find a way to pay for it. >>>> That is not to say you cannot learn something valuable in an unpaid >>>> internship, but hardly any employer considers unpaid experience as >>>> experience. They typically say otherwise publicly, but in house its >>>> only experience if someone is willing to pay you to do it. Paid >>>> experience ALWAYS ranks higher than unpaid. Just like professorial >>>> experience ranks higher than postdoctoral, and postdoctoral ranks >>>> higher than graduate student experience. Likewise, you PHD trumps >>>> your MS, and your MS trumps your BS. Its a rank in file. If you have >>>> nothing else to do, you might try doing an unpaid intern. If you are >>>> not getting pay, or a pub on your CV, its probably not worth your time >>>> or effort. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> David M. Lawrence | Home: (804) 559-9786 >>> 6467 Hanna Drive | Cell: (804) 305-5234 >>> Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: [email protected] >>> USA | http: http://fuzzo.com >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> "All drains lead to the ocean." -- Gill, Finding Nemo >>> >>> "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo >>> >>> "No trespassing >>> 4/17 of a haiku" -- Richard Brautigan >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Malcolm L. McCallum >> Department of Environmental Studies >> University of Illinois at Springfield >> >> Managing Editor, >> Herpetological Conservation and Biology >> >> >> >> "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" - >> Allan Nation >> >> 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert >> 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, >> and pollution. >> 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction >> MAY help restore populations. >> 2022: Soylent Green is People! >> >> The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) >> Wealth w/o work >> Pleasure w/o conscience >> Knowledge w/o character >> Commerce w/o morality >> Science w/o humanity >> Worship w/o sacrifice >> Politics w/o principle >> >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any >> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may >> contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized >> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and >> destroy all copies of the original message. >> > -- Malcolm L. McCallum Department of Environmental Studies University of Illinois at Springfield Managing Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" - Allan Nation 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o sacrifice Politics w/o principle Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
