OK, apologies for starting this thread. All I was looking for were
answers to sort of related questions:
If I were to order a K4 now, will it work into my K3-RRC1258 remote to
the K3-RRC1258 at W7RN?
A good friend answered directly. I have no more questions. Certainly
did not want to stir up the Flex vs Elecraft pot.
73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County
On 8/16/2021 9:04 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I'm not missing any point other than your continued deflection with
that Flex wall of text, and I certainly know that software development
takes time and people. My only point has been that Elecraft is
shipping K4's without the software that they at least implied already
existed (they demo'd it!) and that obviously other other (probably
more important) efforts are taking precedence over its completion.
Why do you keep acting like I have said anything else??
Dave AB7E
On 8/16/2021 8:33 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
David:
On Aug 16, 2021, at 10:27 PM, David Gilbert <[email protected]> wrote:
Well, I'm not particularly interested in Flex's history, but that
seems to be a pretty long winded agreement that there probably isn't
any timetable for the remote capability that Elecraft appeared to
demonstrate in their video upon the release of the K4.
As an aside, last I checked software development wasn't dependent
upon piece part supply. Priorities are priorities, though ... I'm
just saying that the remote capability doesn't appear to be very
high on the list. That's obviously Elecraft's choice, but for me
the remote capability was probably the one key attribute that might
convince me to switch from my K3 to the K4. For everything else
that actually matters to me in the way of raw performance, the K3
seems as good or better.
Perhaps you’re missing my point. Yes, hardware production is
dependent upon parts supply, but the focus of development is software
both in terms of user interface as well as the ‘internals’ of
managing “Software" Defined Radio systems is significantly greater
than prior Elecraft products. It took Flex nearly five years after
initial product announcement to provide Wide Area Network remote
capability for their Flex-6xxxx products. When it came out in 2017,
it changed the entire nature of Flex products. Remote operation is
what is driving Flex users today.
Elecraft presumably understands this, but clearly there are other
software development concerns they’re currently focusing upon. And
how do you balance the need to get hardware product out-the-door (to
generate revenue) versus software development that has been
implicitly promised but is presumably initially paid for with a
hardware purchase? The priority is presumably to get product
out-the-door… And as good as job as Elecraft did on K4 software
development before product release, there will be ‘bugs’ found by
users as the user base expands. Thus, there is also a continuing
need for “software maintenance.”
I have no idea what ‘software licensing’ model Elecraft may pursue
down the road. Will ‘remote operation’ be a separate product to be
purchased when it is available? The version of SmartSDR that users
obtained when they received their Flex-6xxx eventually was replaced
by an ‘enhanced’ version that offers new features with a new version
number that requires payment for a new license if the user wants the
enhanced capabilities. The license is associated with the radio, not
the user. Thus, I went from v1.xxx when the Flex was delivered in
November 2013 and later paid for v2.xxx when "Smartlink” (Remote
operation) was introduced in 2017. Later, Flex offered “Multiflex”
under SmartSDR v3.xxx that I elected not to purchase and my current
SmartSDR v2.7.6 supports my current needs. “Versions” reflect new
capabilities (e.g. “Smartlink” and “Multiflex”) while bug fixes
within a version are provided as part of the existing license. This
pricing model is common in the computer industry and it does provide
a revenue stream to help support continued software development. In
addition, I paid for SmartSDR for Mac and SmartSDR for iOS licenses
developed outside of Flex because they offer features I was willing
to pay for with the developer promising future updates without
additional fees.
Thus, don’t overlook the significance of software development both in
terms of development time and expense. I presume that the software
development effort for the K4 is significantly greater than prior
Elecraft products requiring special skills (such as FPGA programming)
and more extensive development efforts than in the past that takes
time and resources to successfully implement.
FWIW,
Barry, WD4ASW/1
73,
Dave AB7E
On 8/16/2021 5:55 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
David:
On Aug 16, 2021, at 7:28 PM, David Gilbert <[email protected]> wrote:
Apparently not. I recently asked on this list if new K4 users
could tell us how well the K4 worked for remote operations. The
only replies I got said that Elecraft had not yet written a
release version of the software for remote operation of the K4,
and as best they could tell from the responses they had gotten
from Elecraft there was no timetable for doing so. Nobody from
Elecraft bothered to answer my query, so they are probably correct.
We all know that Elecraft is facing huge challenges on all fronts
in terms of product manufacturing and digging through the orders
they’ve received.
Elecraft is not alone in terms of announcing a vision and then
expending the resources ($$$, technical development, production,
distribution) to make it happen. Elecraft’s new vision is not easy
to implement and will take time (years) to fulfill what has been
announced. The challenge is to provide a roadmap and then
calibrate everyone’s expectations regarding when these new
capabilities will be available to users. Like FlexRadio, Elecraft
is building a new product line (“ecosystem”) that is fundamentally
changing their product offereings and thus the user experience.
While I’m not suggesting that Elecraft’s ability to fulfill its
roadmap mirrors the customer experience at FlexRadio, making the
comparison at least provides a potential for context and
recognizing that the technical and financial challenges can be
significant. In addition, events of the past 18 months has
certainly impacted Elecraft more than Flex in terms of new product
releases given what California has been going through not only with
Covid-19 but fires and power outages along with subcontractor
issues, parts issues, etc.
So with these thoughts in mind, I can recite my personal experience
as an ‘early adopter’ of the Flex-6000 series and the timeframes of
what was promised and when it was delivered as I can recall offhand.
1. Hamvention 2012 was when Flex announced the Flex-6700
transceiver and the evolution into a ‘client-server’ typography
between radio (server) and connection device (PC, other user
interface) as the client. What caught my eye was the promise of
remote operation via an ethernet connection that would greatly
simplify the setup and operation of a remote station. Given that
my potential operating would be 90% of the time via remote
operation, this was a big deal to me. I ordered one in August
2012 as their ‘early purchase discount’ was expiring.
2. My Flex-6700 was delivered in November 2013 with SmarSDR v1.x
that was essentially useless for my purposes. No provision for
remote operation and only ‘basic functions.’ No promises were made
as to when remote operation would be possible.
3. In August 2014 I purchased the K3-KPA500-KAT500-K3/I0 mini with
remote rig system from Elecraft at the Huntsville Hamfest. 10 days
later product was delivered to me in Westborough, MA and I
subsequently set it up at my station in Folkston, GA over labor day
weekend. I ordered the equipment because at this point I had no
idea when Flex would have developed their remote capability and
none of us were getting any younger.
Setup was simple and ‘it simply worked’. Nothing fancy versus the
potential of the Flex, but it performed as advertised. Most
importantly, i had a reliable remote station capability.
4. In May 2017 Flex announced SmartSDR v2.x with “Smartlink” that
finally provided the wide area network remote capability that I was
looking for. Note that this was FIVE YEARS after initial product
announcement. By then SmartSDR had evolved to a level of maturity
where the capabilities were meeting expectations….
5. In February 2018 Flex announced the PGXL amplifier along with
an external tuner capable of SO2R capability that would handle the
output of the PGXL. The PGXL was shown at the Orlando Hamcation
but the tuner at this point was ‘vapor’ as it had not yet been
designed. I ordered mine the day that Hamcation opened.
6. I received my PGXL in May 2018 following Hamvention. Neither
SmartSDR nor the Maestro were updated to accommodate the PGXL, so I
was forced to use the PGXL using the PGXL utility running on a PC
in the shack when operating remotely. More significantly, no tuner
was announced so at this point I could use the amplifier with my
tribander. This meant that I was dependent upon the Elecraft
equipment for bands other than 10-15-20.
7. The amplifier was returned to Flex in December 2018 due to
warranty recall (issue with six meters).
8. I don’t remember when, but PGXL integration was incorporated
into both Maestro and the various SmartSDR iterations, making it
much easier to manage the PGXL remotely.
9. The TGXL (Tuner Genius) was announced in March 2021. I received
my Tuner Genius in June 2021, 3+ years after I ordered the PGXL and
tuner package.
10. With the release of TGXL, a TGXL utility was also released
providing ‘basic’ remote operability to manage the Tuner. No word
as of today as to when the TGXL will be integrated into SmartSDR or
Maestro. It does integrate with Antenna Genius if you have the
SO2R version of TGXL.
In fairness to Flex, a number of cool capabilities were developed
by Flex and third parties over the past four years including
SmartSDR for Mac, DogPark SDR, SmartSDR for iOS (iPhone and iPad)
and various utilities. Flex has actively encouraged developers to
use their API to create new features/capabilities for the Flex-6xxx
‘ecosystem.'
In essence, it has taken Flex and others nine years to develop a
Flex-6xxxx ‘ecosystem’ of very tremendous capability that covers
the entire operator HF experience. With transverters, this
experience can be extended to VHF and above. The system has
matured to the point where the equipment “works” and fulfills their
vision of remote capability. As third parties develop new features
(including Node Red systems), the potential is endless.
I personally see Elecraft’s K4 as having similar potential. I don’t
doubt for a moment the dedication and vision that Eric and Wayne
possess in their efforts to bring the K4 ‘ecosystem’ to fruition.
Hopefully, their vision will be completed more expeditiously than
Flex, but I also suspect that they’re following a multi-year
evolutionary process given their current challenges… I also
suspect that there will be the potential for third parties to
develop products that will enhance the K4 experience over time.
FWIW,
Barry Baines, WD4ASW/1
Keller, TX
(Currently in Roslindale, MA)
73,
Dave AB7E
On 8/16/2021 2:22 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
1. I run W7RN remotely with the RemoteRig RRC-1258 setup and my
K3. If I replace my K3 with a K4, and Tom does _not_ do likewise
at RN, will my remote setup still work?
73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County
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