A strict alternative is definitely a great idea!
for! sounds good and I like it.
Just an alternative for the record if we want to go for a different
operator instead: maybe we could use the `in` operator to distinguish with
the `<-`?
It reads naturally, `in` is already semantically used for enumerables, it
is different enough from `<-` to make the difference in behavior clear and
it is common in several other languages (python, JS...).
for {key, value} in map do
Le dim. 13 juin 2021 à 21:06, Adam Lancaster <a...@a-corp.co.uk> a écrit :
> That makes sense!
>
> I guess you could make a new operator available outside of the `for` too,
> like back in a `with`... Maybe `<-!`
>
> Best
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2021, at 19:11, Paul Schoenfelder <paulschoenfel...@fastmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In my opinion, internal consistency is part of the mental model, so
> inconsistency reflects a flaw in the model. That said, I think that's
> probably talking past you on this a bit, and I get what your point is:
> ultimately if it is reasonably intuitive, consistency can be allowed to
> fall by the wayside a bit. I guess where I disagree is that I'm not sure
> this will intuitive for someone not already steeped in the language. The
> point I was getting at by comparing `for` and `with` is that they both make
> use of the same `<-` operator in a way that is consistent across both
> forms, but with `for!` that falls apart.
>
> Now back to `for!`. Even though it looks just like `for`, the `<-`
> operator starts to behave like `=`. If you are skimming code and happen to
> miss the single character difference between the two (`for` vs `for!`), you
> will wind up with a very different idea about what the same code does. The
> human brain is terrible at distinguishing small differences like this, it's
> why you can typo things like `behavior` and `behaviour` and read right over
> it without noticing, sometimes even when you are _trying_ to notice those
> things.
>
> I think it would be far better for us to use a new operator in place of
> `<-`, rather than a new special form that looks basically identical to an
> existing one, but works differently in subtle ways. Not to mention, the
> operator approach would allow one to mix both `<-` and the new operator
> together in the same `for`, should it be useful to do so. In any case, I
> don't really have a strong opinion on what that operator is specifically,
> but I am much more in favor of that direction, than I am `for!`.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021, at 9:24 AM, Adam Lancaster wrote:
>
> I'm definitely sympathetic to that idea.
>
> I think part of what internal consistency buys us is predictability and
> therefore a quicker path to a good mental model about what the code is
> going to do. But the mental model is the more important thing. Which is
> just to say if we don't have internal consistency but we can get to a good
> mental model, then I think it might be okay.
>
> I think given other functions that follow the same idea, seeing a `for!`
> would certainly communicate "right this is expected to raise under some
> condition" - at least to me.
>
> There's also not an obvious way to have `for` mimic `with` when I think
> about it because say you do this:
>
> ```
> for [a, _] = [1, 2], do: ...
> ```
>
> there is no way to distinguish it from a filter - where `=` should not
> raise a match error.
>
> I think you'd have to more clearly de-mark the difference between the
> generators and the filters, which feels like a big change.
>
>
> Best
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2021, at 00:13, Paul Schoenfelder <paulschoenfel...@fastmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I’m generally in favor of the option to have stricter semantics, but to me
> the introduction of `for!` feels out of sync with other special forms, none
> of which are bang-form. Furthermore, especially in contrast to `with`, you
> end up with this weird dichotomy with the `<-` operator, where sometimes it
> means a filtering match, and other times where it means strict match. That
> kind of syntactical inconsistency in a language feels like a bad precedent
> to set, despite what feels like a reasonable compromise. It’s also notable
> to me that there are easy ways to program defensively to force match errors
> if you want them, within the current syntax, but obviously that comes at
> the cost of more verbosity.
>
> I’m not sure what the right answer is, but this feels to me like rushing
> to solve a specific problem without spending enough time considering how it
> meshes with the rest of the language in terms of cognitive complexity,
> particularly for those new to the language.
>
> Anyway, that’s my two cents. I’m a fan of the concept for sure, but would
> almost prefer to see the semantics changed in a major version bump, to
> match `with`, even if that meant manually updating a bunch of my code,
> because at least it keeps the language self consistent. I’ll admit I’m
> probably an outlier on that though.
>
> Paul
>
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, at 6:16 PM, Christopher Keele wrote:
>
> That's fair enough! Though from my perspective both for! and strict: true
> would
> be about equally far from the <- where matches fail. But I can see the
> keyword format getting lost in the filters and other keywords.
>
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 3:14 PM José Valim <jose.va...@dashbit.co> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I meant to someone reading the code. The strict option is modifying
> the behavior of the operator <-, which may be quite before it in the text.
>
> I prefer for! in this case as it is upfront.
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 00:09 Christopher Keele <christheke...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > My concern with :strict is that it changes the behavior considerably of
> the generators but it may show up only quite later on, far from them,
> especially if you have multiple filters.
>
> Could you elaborate? I don't quite think I understand, particularly *"[the
> behaviour] may show up only quite later on"*
>
> Does "quite later" here refer to code distance (the MatchError's
> stacktrace would point away from/bury the for location)? Or temporal
> distance?
>
> On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 2:58:03 PM UTC-7 José Valim wrote:
>
> My concern with :strict is that it changes the behavior considerably of
> the generators but it may show up only quite later on, far from them,
> especially if you have multiple filters.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 23:56 Christopher Keele <christ...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > for {:ok, num} <- list, strict: true, do: num
>
> Agreed, this is more or less exactly what I was pitching.
> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:16:25 PM UTC-7 tal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I would like to add a solution within the existing language:
>
>
> ```elixir
>
> > list = [{:ok, 1}, {:ok, 2}, {:error, :fail}, {:ok, 4}]
> > for el <- list, do: ({:ok, num} = el; num)
> ** (MatchError) no match of right hand side value: {:error, :fail}
> ```
> I think this is reasonable.
>
> Acctually the built in filtering in `for` caught me off guard, I was
> expecting for to fail unless all elements matched. So for me the better
> solution would be to always make matching in `for` strict. But I guess this
> is too late now for backwards compatibility. Another alternative to `for!`
> would be:
>
> ```elixir
>
> > list = [{:ok, 1}, {:ok, 2}, {:error, :fail}, {:ok, 4}]
> > for {:ok, num} <- list, strict: true, do: num
> ** (MatchError) no match of right hand side value: {:error, :fail}
> ```
>
> I don't like the use of the exclamation mark in `for!` because it has
> little meaning relative to the existing use of the exclamation mark in
> Elixir.
>
> onsdag 9. juni 2021 kl. 13:17:04 UTC+2 skrev ad...@a-corp.co.uk:
>
> I also love the proposal.
>
> It's a shame we can't re-use the `with` semantics of `=` raising a match
> error in the for.
>
> My two cents is `for!` makes the most sense, and follows the conventions
> of other functions.
>
> Best
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 8 Jun 2021, at 18:18, Christopher Keele <christ...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This feature would be very useful, I've experience this signature-change
> pain point before too (and kind of have been avoiding `for` ever since,
> TBH).
>
> I'm reluctant to increase the surface area of the language itself, what do
> you think about adding a `:strict` option to `for` instead of a new special
> form/kernel macro/operator?
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:50:45 AM UTC-7 eric.meado...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> ## Background
>
> `for` comprehensions are one of the most powerful features in Elixir. It
> supports both enumerable and bitstring generators, filters through boolean
> expressions and pattern matching, collectibles with `:into` and folding
> with `:reduce`.
>
> One of the features are automatic filtering by patterns in generators:
>
> ```elixir
> list = [{:ok, 1}, {:ok, 2}, {:error, :fail}, {:ok, 4}]
> for {:ok, num} <- list, do: num
> #=> [1, 2, 4]
> ```
>
> Generator filtering is very powerful because it allows you to succinctly
> filter out data that is not relevant to the comprehension in the same
> expression that you are generating elements out of your
> enumerable/bitstrings. But the implicit filtering can be dangerous because
> changes in the shape of the data will silently be removed which can cause
> hard to catch bugs.
>
> The following example can show how this can be an issue when testing
> `Posts.create/0`. If a change causes the function to start returning `{:ok,
> %Post{}}` instead of the expected `%Post{}` the test will pass even though
> we have a bug.
>
> ```elixir
> test "create posts" do
> posts = Posts.create()
> for %Post{id: id} <- posts, do: assert is_integer(id)
> end
> ```
>
> The example uses a test to highlight the issue but it can just as well
> happen in production code, specially when refactoring in other parts of the
> code base than the comprehension.
>
> Elixir is a dynamically typed language but dynamic typing errors are less
> of an issue compared to many other dynamic languages because we are usual
> strict in the data we accept by using pattern matching and guard functions.
> `for` is by design not strict on the shape of data it accepts and therefor
> loses the nice property of early failure on incorrect data.
>
> ## Proposal
>
> I propose an alternative comprehension macro called `for!` that has the
> same functionality as `for` but instead of filtering on patterns in
> generators it will raise a `MatchError`.
>
> ```elixir
> posts = [{:ok, %Post{}}]
> for! %Post{id: id} <- posts, do: assert is_integer(id)
> #=> ** (MatchError) no match of right hand side value: {:ok, %Post{}}
> ```
>
> Pattern matching when not generating values with `=` remains unchanged.
>
> `for!` gives the developer an option to be strict on the data it accepts
> instead of silently ignoring data that does not match.
>
> ## Other considerations
>
> You can get strict matching with `for` today by first assigning to a
> variable. This way you can also mix filtering and strict matching patterns.
>
> ```elixir
> posts = [{:ok, %Post{}}]
> for post <- posts,
> %Post{id: id} = post,
> do: assert is_integer(id)
> #=> ** (MatchError) no match of right hand side value: {:ok, %Post{}}
> ```
>
> Another alternative is to introduce a new operator such as `<<-` (the
> actual token can be anything, `<<-` is only used as an example) for raising
> pattern matches instead of introducing a completely new macro.
>
> ```elixir
> posts = [{:ok, %Post{}}]
> for %Post{id: id} <<- posts, do: assert is_integer(id)
> #=> ** (MatchError) no match of right hand side value: {:ok, %Post{}}
> ```
>
> A downside of adding new functions or macros is that it doesn't compose as
> well compared to adding options (or operators) to existing functions. If we
> want to add another variant of comprehensions in the future we might be in
> the position that we need 4 macros, and then 8 and so on.
>
> Another benefit of adding an operator is that you can mix both `<-` and
> `<<-` in a single comprehension.
>
> The downside of an operator is that it adds more complexity for the
> language user. We would also need an operator that is visually close to
> `<-` but still distinctive enough that they are easy to separate since
> their behavior are very difference.
>
>
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