Tania,
Thank you for your comments. Allow me to better explain my position.
1. I am well aware of the language you cited from UL1950. This has
never been in question, as it is precise and understandable. Page
23? even lists many examples of products falling under the standard.
2. However, UL1950 is a standard, not a "law", which was the original
question initiating this discussion. I think the original inquiry
asked what laws require compliance to the standards. My original
point was that the "laws" cited, e.g.NEC and OSHA, are very poorly
worded when it comes to what "equipment" is covered. One response
was that it means any electrical equipment with a useful purpose,
or words to that effect. Is there electrical equipment out there
that has no useful purpose that would therefore not be covered?
3. You are correct that SELV ITE is included in UL1950. I did not mean
to gloss over this. An earlier append in the discussion said that
"utilization equipment" was anything that plugged into 120V. I was
pointing out that it also applies to voltages other than 120V. The
"standard" does allow for the certification of Class III (SELV)
ITE. However, the scope limits this to "mains or battery powered"
equipment. This excludes the many devices which may be powered at
SELV voltages from an external AC adapter. That is, the adapter
falls within the scope (mains powered), but not the driven device.
4. It is my opinion that the reason "battery" powered equipment was
included is that some older products were prone to catching fire
inside briefcases as a result of shorted batteries. See the CPSC
website for some early laptops pulled from the market for this reason.
BTW, the flashlight comments were posted by Rich, not me.
Again, thank you for your comments. That is what makes this listserver
an excellent sounding board. I have consistently been impressed with
the caliber of questions and answers posted. Note that there is a big
difference between ignorance and stupity. Ignorance can be cured. I am
still ignorant in many matters, but hope I am not stupid, which has no cure.
Regards,
George Alspaugh
To all us others, and primarily to George at Lexmark!
Regarding your item "3. The NEC and OSHA requirements "probably" do apply
to any electrical device that is operated from voltages above SELV." Take
a look at the 3rd edition of UL1950 under Scope, 1.1.1: "This standard is
applicable to mains-powered or battery-powered information technology
equipment, including electrical business equipment and associated equipment,
with a rated voltage not exceeding 600 V and......" Nowhere does it state
that this standard applies only to equipment at SELV and above. In fact,
if you go further into the standard and check out section 1.2.4.3, it
describes Class III equipment (SELV supplied). Thus, any equipment,
including that which operates at SELV voltages, falls under this standard.
Regarding the following comment-
(Obviously, OSHA ignores low-voltage and battery-operated equipment
such as flashlights and calculators. I haven't located the "out"
for these kinds of equipments.)
-- I believe that flashlights and
calculators are "ignored" because the standard addresses mains-powered or
(they should have said) mains battery-powered equipment..... If your
equipment needs a wire to obtain power, you are covered by this standard
(assuming other characteristics apply.)
And yes, I do agree with your 4th item. The legalese could be more user
friendly.
Tania Grant, [email protected] <[email protected]>
Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group
----------
From: [email protected] [SMTP:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: U.S. National Product Safety "Laws"
To Rich et al (fancy way of saying "and others"):
I was a little reluctant to fan the embers of this discussion the other day,
but do not regret doing so based on the healthy discussion that followed.
In
any event, I shall blame Doug's append for peaking my interest. I assume we
can all agree that:
1. We do not want to market unsafe products that may cause harm.
2. No one is looking for "loopholes" in the safety standards.
3. The NEC and OSHA requirements "probably" do apply to any
electrical device that is operated from voltages above SELV.
4. The NEC and OSHA requirements are worded like legal documents,
and thus, far from clear in their meaning.
Having said this, I have added some remarks (in brackets [ ] ) to your last
note below, hoping that these do not not extend the discussion, but are my
final thoughts.....
Best regards,
George Alspaugh
__________________________________________________________________________
Hi George:
> I've read these sections of the CFR many times, and always interpreted
them
> to apply to end user equipment, as you imply. However, I am beginning
to
see
> that this may be somewhat like quoting the Bible out of context. The
context
> in this section of the CFR (before and after) overwhelmingly refers to
"house"
> wiring types of equipment.
I don't agree that the text overwhelmingly refers to wiring
(i.e., in OSHA words, "utilization system").
First, it would be derelict of OSHA to ignore the utilization
equipment used by employees. One of the major construction
site hazards was failure of insulation in portable electric
tools. OSHA was the prime mover towards double-insulated
electric tools! While our government often makes mistakes,
they do NOT ignore "utilization equipment."
[I believe that there are a dozen ways "utilization equipment"
could be better stated to clarify the intended meaning. How about
"any electrical equipment, devices, appliances, and other products
that are connected to electrical power systems at voltages deemed
to be hazardous." Note that in homes and offices there are products
requiring 220V (e.g. air conditioners, dryers, heaters) in addition
to those operated from 115V.]
Second, the text refers to "equipment" and to "utilization
equipment," both of which are defined terms. The definitions
must be substituted EVERYWHERE the words appear in the text.
When I apply the definitions, I cannot conclude as you do that
the text refers "overwhelmingly" to wiring.
[I suggest if one goes to the cheapest discount store in their area,
and look at the table/floor lamps offered for sale, they will find
some with no NRTL markings. I will also suggest that these were NOT
approved by a Federal, state, or local government authority. Are
these "utilization equipment"? If so, how can they be offered for
sale?]
> Is it only me, or do others have problems reading into this that it does
apply
> to end user products such as ITE or blenders? With so many pages
dedicated
to
> describing the exact requirements for the construction of an
"installation"
to
> provide power to "equipment", why are there no pages dedicated to
describing
the
> requirements of the "equipment"? IEC 60950 contains 180 pages of such
> requirements.
The OSHA standard for electrical "equipment" is that it be "approved."
"Approved" means "acceptable."
"Acceptable" has three definitions, one of which is certified
by an NRTL, one of which is testing to NEC provisions, and
one of which is testing by the manufacturer.
In this way, OSHA skirts having to publish individual product
safety standards. As near as I can tell, OSHA did this overtly
and after having thought it out rather extensively. OSHA
realized that it could NEVER cover all electrical products with
standards.
> Note that covered equipment (whatever that may be) can be acceptable by
virtue
> of the proper labelling/lisitng, or simply inspected and found to be
safe by
> one of the referenced authorities. Several have pointed out that such
> authorities typically require a NRTL listing/marking. If your "proof"
is to
be
> interpreted as you (and I) have been interpreting it, then every single
> electrical device sold in the U.S. would HAVE to have an NRTL marking.
I
know
> that a few years ago we were using internal PCs that bore no such
markings.
> I will not mention the brand name here. I suspect that one could find
many
> electrical products under $10 that do not display such markings either.
Yes, ALL electrical equipment used by employees in the workplace
must be "approved" (which means "acceptable" by one of the three
definitions).
(Obviously, OSHA ignores low-voltage and battery-operated equipment
such as flashlights and calculators. I haven't located the "out"
for these kinds of equipments.)
If an OSHA inspector should find an electrical product that is not
certified by an NRTL, I'm sure the employer will be notified!
You can, of course, ask OSHA if the standards apply to ITE. I have
no doubt of the answer. [I would tend to agree. It is the wording
used, rather than the intent of, the NEC/OSHA requirements that lead
to such debates.]
Best regards,
Rich
---------
This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
To cancel your subscription, send mail to [email protected]
with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
quotes). For help, send mail to [email protected],
[email protected], [email protected], or
[email protected] (the list administrators).
---------
This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
To cancel your subscription, send mail to [email protected]
with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
quotes). For help, send mail to [email protected],
[email protected], [email protected], or
[email protected] (the list administrators).
---------
This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
To cancel your subscription, send mail to [email protected]
with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
quotes). For help, send mail to [email protected],
[email protected], [email protected], or
[email protected] (the list administrators).
