Mark,
What conclusion are you referring to in the Nato report ?? The xDSL variant were included for completeness , but no reference exist to a comparative level of created wave strength or interference. I think we can agree on a defined level DM signal in a twisted pair (xDSL) creating less interference then the same level in a power wiring system, aren’t we ? And “this logic” distincts between a combined POWER/PLT port and a dedicated port (ADSL). For AC ports a well established test method and limits exist. There is room for improvement in the V-network and test method, but not in raising the conducted / radiated test levels. Gert Gremmen Ce-test, qualified testing bv Van: Mark Gandler [mailto:[email protected]] Verzonden: dinsdag 25 mei 2010 19:44 Aan: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Onderwerp: RE: PLT is a Radio system. was: CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System so by this logic, why not simply consider HOME BPL port/transmission as a telecom port/transmission and to measure as such? same as you do for ADSL? if you read NATO report they combine these 2, BPL/PLC and A/VDSL in their findings regarding the interference. VDSL uses up 20Mhz spectrum. Going to ban this one next? ________________________________ Subject: PLT is a Radio system. was: CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System List-Post: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:17:58 +0200 From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Charles, You should not have used the phrase: “device that happens to use the HF band maybe” The word “use” here is incompatible with unintentional. ;<))))) The only way you can link the word unintentional to PLT is is by describing it as “unintentional radio transmitter”. The difference between real unintentional radiators and PLT is that the latter uses the unintentional radiation for data communication, and ordinary equipment radiate just “noise”. ITU defines: 1.19 Radio communication service A service as defined in this Section involving the transmission, emission and/or reception of radio waves for specific telecommunication purposes. In these Regulations, unless otherwise stated, any radio communication service relates to terrestrial radio communication. 1.3 Telecommunication Any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writings, images and sounds or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio, optical or other electromagnetic systems (CS). 1.5 Radio waves or hertzian waves Electromagnetic waves of frequencies arbitrarily lower than 3 000 GHz, propagated in space without artificial guide. And in 6.1.2 6.1.2 Emissions, Interference and Spectrum Use …… The International Telecommunication Union has created a system which classifies radio emissions according to the bandwidth, method of modulation, nature of the modulating signal, and type of information transmitted on the carrier signal. These form the technical basis for establishing equipment specifications for radio systems designed to operate within certain frequencies. ……. The emission of the signals of PLT comply with this description, unintentional radiation from, say a PC, does not fit such a description. Notches: The acceptance of thePLT- industry to notch out certain frequencies, implies the acceptance that these instruments have a radio aspect beyond ordinary equipment. Did you ever see DELL, IBM or HP notch out there unwanted spurious emissions ?? Even if they are in the HAM bands ?? Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen [email protected] www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. Van: Grasso, Charles [mailto:[email protected]] Verzonden: Monday, May 24, 2010 4:07 PM Aan: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; 'Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK)'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]' Onderwerp: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System “That is why I plea for treating PLT as Radio, not wire bounded communication.” No – no – no. PLT is an unintentional device that happens to use the HF band maybe at higher levels than you would like – but there it is. By your logic ALL electronic devices should be classified as intentional radiators. After all we have emissions that fall in someone’s space in the ether. (Disclosure : I have eight PLC devices in my house. As my interconnection needs expanded I could keep pace without having to rewire the house!) Best Regards Charles Grasso ________________________________ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:35 AM To: Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK); [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System Hi Tim, The problem is that PLT manufacturers state that they use cabling, and not the HF spectrum. So they are not concerned with ITU. That is why I plea for treating PLT as Radio, not wire bounded communication. Any radiation should (according to them) be treated as spurious radiation. As the standard AMN (V-network- LISN) has a conversion factor from Diff Mode signal to its output of - 6dB, any send level above on average 66 + 6 dB is a failure. (well, you know the actual limits). By defining the mains connection as both mains (when not sending) and telecom port (when sending) they try to create a situation where a dedicated network (ISN) can be introduced to measure telecom port spurious emissions. Of course any telecom port network (ISN) has to mimic the LCL value of the connected network (just as with CAT 3-6 network cabling),and that opens a way of redefining the 6dB LCL value. Some propositions go as low as -26 dB of DM to CM conversion, and this makes it possible to increase the send level with 20 dB. So that means that an mains network has better properties for PLT (-26) then for other equipment (-6) !!!! Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen [email protected] www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. Van: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Namens Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK) Verzonden: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:22 AM Aan: [email protected]; [email protected] Onderwerp: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System Keeping my Ham Radio interests out of this discussion... If there is a conflict between two incompatible uses of the HF spectrum, I would think that it is necessary for the ITU to arrange a proper discussion regarding the merits of radio-communications vs.. PLT/Home Plug. Even though I know which I think is most important, I can see that, if it is necessary for the good of humanity, to supplant radio communications in the HF band with PLT then it will show as such in any rigorous cost benefit analysis. All we need is a body with a charter from the worlds governments to arrange this and make a ruling on future spectrum use based upon the result. Without a "cost benefit analysis", the argument will continue. In my view it is undemocratic to continue in the current manner. Regards Tim Comment on notching. Even if I am advantaged by the notching of the PLT emissions, what about the users of the rest of the bands? Do they deserve to loose their use of the HF spectrum to PLT just because they do not have an organised voice in the same way that Hams do? The above are my personal comments and not those of my Company. Tim ************************ Tim Haynes Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist SELEX Galileo, A Finmeccanica Company 300 Capability Green Luton LU1 3PG (Phone () +44 (0) 1582 886239 (Mob )) +44 (0) 7540629920 (Fax 7)+44 (0)1582 795863 (Email *) [email protected] www.selexgalileo.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary and those who don't. J. Paxman ________________________________ From: Alan E Hutley [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 19 May 2010 07:33 To: [email protected] Subject: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System *** WARNING *** This message has originated outside your organisation, either from an external partner or the Global Internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Hello All Those interested in the Environmental effects of PLT/BPL/PLC may find this interesting. Environmental Effects of the widespread deployment of high speed Power Line Communication- Cumulative Effects on Signal/Noise ratio for Radio Systems By Richard Marshall, MA, CEng., FIEE, FIET, FInstP, Richard Marshall Limited http://www.compliance-club.com/PLT/Richard%20Marshall%20Issue%2087.PDF Cheers Alan E Hutley The EMC Journal - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> SELEX Galileo Ltd Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 3EL A company registered in England & Wales. Company no. 02426132 ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. 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