Hi Ted, Very appreciate your useful information! It tells me why I could not find it in the product specific safety requirement in UL 250 & UL 60335-2-14.
According to testing laboratories, they claim the plastic back, HIPS is allowed but must meet fire retardant UL-94 5VA rating, otherwise metal back is a must. Is it equivalent characteristics of ASTM E84 and UL 723? Regards, Scott On 26 June 2017 at 04:59, Ted Eckert < [email protected]> wrote: > The United States has significant national differences. > > > > Many U.S. national standards have very strict flammability requirement for > larger areas of materials used indoors. The basic requirement applies when > you have a piece of material longer than 6 feet (2 meters) or greater than > 10 square feet (1 square meter) in area. This material must pass the > Steiner Fire Tunnel test, covered in ASTM E84 and UL 723. This video > gives a basic outline of the test > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=iEe5dQ7LPhM>. Interior > building surfaces must meet fairly strict requirements and this would > include a large sheet of plastic on the back of a refrigerator. There are > even stricter requirements for materials used in air plenums, such as above > a suspended ceiling. > > > > The linked video references the “International Building Code”, or the IBC. > The same requirements are in the Uniform Building Code, or UBC. Most > municipalities in the United States adopt either the IBC or UBC. > > > > Here is a sample UL Listing for a material commonly used for kitchen > countertops > <http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=BTAT.R11986&ccnshorttitle=Molded+Plastic&objid=1074291935&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073984739&sequence=1>. > Similar requirements apply to drywall, flooring materials, plastic glazing > materials, ceiling tiles and other construction products. > > > > Many U.S. national standards do not specifically call out this > requirement, largely because few products that fall under those standards > have enough surface area. For example, I had a large piece of computer > equipment certified to UL 60950-1. UL applied the UL 723 requirements to > the plastics used for large air plenums on the structure. It was probably > one of the few pieces of ITE equipment I’ve ever seen with pieces of > plastic large enough to warrant UL 723 testing. > > > > The back of a refrigerator would be close to the limits where a U.S. > Nationally Recognized Test Laboratory (NRTL) might apply UL 723. The > refrigerator manufacturer could come up with ways of reducing the panel > size below the limit to avoid this challenging test. > > > > The Steiner Tunnel Test is also used for wiring that could be hidden in > walls or air plenums, such as above a suspended ceiling. There is another > U.S. national difference that affects wires over 10 feet (3.05 meters) in > length. This is in UL 60950-1 and UL 62368-1. If your computer’s external > cable is less than 3.05 m, it only needs to be VW-1, FT-1 or better. If the > cable is longer, there is a concern that it could carry flame from where > the computer is located to another occupied space. Finding an Ethernet > cable that meets this requirement, often called plenum rated, is easy. > Finding a USB cable that meets the requirement is hard. > > > > Ted Eckert > > Microsoft Corporation > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer, any NRTL or the code authorities behind the IBC and UBC. > > > > > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:01 AM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire > > > > Adam, > > > > It is a good statistics! > > > > Actually US now also adopts UL EN 60335-2-24 as their safety standard. > Does UL have deviation for US in this standard as suggested by John? > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > Scott > > > > *From: *Adam Dixon <[email protected]> > *Reply-To: *Adam Dixon <[email protected]> > *Date: *Sunday, 25 June 2017 at 7:52 PM > *To: *<[email protected]> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire > > > > Here's another good UK data source for incidents, not recalls: > > https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/fire- > statistics-data-tables > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fstatistical-data-sets%2Ffire-statistics-data-tables&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165781837&sdata=FwqZC6%2BVF27OkRORXGTemSPoSXe5YpSxkdHu9FarxkU%3D&reserved=0> > > The "Domestic appliance fires dataset" file near the bottom can be parsed > by appliance type. > > Cheers, > > Adam > > [email protected] > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:42 AM, John Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc- > [email protected]> wrote: > > Scott > > > > Look on the EU Commission RAPEX site: > > http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_ > products/rapex/alerts/ > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu%2Fconsumers%2Fconsumers_safety%2Fsafety_products%2Frapex%2Falerts%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=B%2BpZYmERccXhKqUrO3Y9ZaRzTspq9nj7Y6xqrhJ9mJs%3D&reserved=0> > > > > Actually, don’t if you want to sleep tonight! > > > > John E Allen > > W.London, UK > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* 25 June 2017 12:34 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire > > > > Hi Adam, > > > > The info supplied is interesting! Yes, it aligns with John’s thought. > However, the recalled units are quite different – 5,200 vs 1.2 m. In the > UK, there are a few million recalls of clothes dryers in last few years – > that is quite different from US data. Is there similar data of UK and/or > EU? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Scott > > > > > > *From: *Adam Dixon <[email protected]> > *Date: *Sunday, 25 June 2017 at 7:06 PM > *To: *Scott Xe <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > *Cc: *<[email protected]> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire > > > > Here's a slightly dated but popular US magazine article with a table near > the end that supports John's closing thought about rarity of fridge fires > compared to tumble-dryer fires (1:9 ratio). > > http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/03/ > appliance-fires-is-your-home-safe/index.htm > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consumerreports.org%2Fcro%2Fmagazine%2F2012%2F03%2Fappliance-fires-is-your-home-safe%2Findex.htm&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=aEnwHYkLu9GrByivxXoHMtluDF3ExAoDloWIrPrhtT0%3D&reserved=0> > > Cheers, > > Adam > > [email protected] > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Scott Xe <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, thanks for background info! > > LFB said one fire every day in London is caused by white goods. It is a > horrible figure! > > Grenfell Tower Fire is a bit different from previous ones and had another > risk of non-approved insulation and cladding tiles on the outer wall of > building. It is still unclear how the fire spreads from the fridge to the > cladding titles. Was the fridge close to the windows? > > From the video, the metal back seems to work delaying the fire spread. It > may trigger the standard body to think it again. The capacitor incident > prevention has been incorporated into the safety standard, why not this > one? LFB may take this case to reinforce their warning alert in 2015. > > Scott > > On 25/6/2017, 5:25 PM, "John Woodgate" <[email protected]> wrote: > > It's not quite 'resistance', it's more a matter of different > priorities. US safety standards major on protection against fire because > they were originated by the insurance industry (Underwriters Laboratory) > for obvious financial reasons, while European safety standards major on > prevention of electric shock, because 230 V is more dangerous than 120 V > (but of course not more dangerous than 240 V!), and timber-framed buildings > are relatively rare in Europe. > > I guess that the applicable safety standard (IEC/EN 60335-2-xxx) > isn't strongly influenced by US experts (US may even have voted for it) and > thus doesn’t require a metal back panel, whereas the UL standard (which may > be the IEC standard with a modification or several) does require one. > > All the Sections of IEC 60335-2 are under continuous review as > technologies change, and the recent incidence of fires may well result in > significant changes. > > However, unlike the tumble dryer case, where numerous fires were > reported, this fridge-freezer fire is just one incident, and may be due to > a 'one-off' fault' or obstruction of the ventilation. Even the enquiry that > is being held may not be able to assign a definite cause. I suspect that > fridge fires are very much rarer than tumble-dryer fires, even if, to be > fair, the epidemic dryer fires are excluded. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmwa.demon.co.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=ewI3pMv%2B%2FSyeNkkneh8bgtWX9oIKUIFhhvmVkXHD3hs%3D&reserved=0> > J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Xe [mailto:[email protected] > <scott.xe@G-%3cBR%3e----------------------------------------------------------------%3cBR%3e%3cp%3eThis%20message%20is%20from%20the%20IEEE%20Product%20Safety%20Engineering%20Society%20emc-pstc%20discussion%20list.%20To%20post%20a%20message%20to%20the%20list,%20send%20your%20e-mail%20to%20%3c%3cA%20HREF=> > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=l1RnVJPaZ6DrDl8Sre2WZZHPWJ8bntqXq6SyKancp5k%3D&reserved=0> > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=euJOUZgEen4mFMgZVsDDNGMyjeHtbPB0NszZObsL8Ls%3D&reserved=0> > can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=7OJQKHvMsmpDz2nii0JICMCFmQ5Mw5TJuekMdXrg6bk%3D&reserved=0> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=Oh0VetogpAIPGPGSFZZq19mOJoWM0vh1EqUOel56%2B4I%3D&reserved=0> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=ebZpPH8QshSN1PJtrWBf83RxlRCXUx1lSYqSQzJ2N%2Fw%3D&reserved=0> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. 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